to ask where indyref Part 5 is?

[grovel]

Well?

Statistically I think we also have a collective memory which hates the Tory Party as an entity

You are normally strong on statistics! Do you really think its fair to condemn those 412,000 people as not existing?

The problem is, when you are tying to set up a new society, if you do it on the premise of intolerance towards quite a sizeable political preference, its not going to be a very nice place to live.

Well to be fair, in the last General Election, in 2010, the Conservatives polled 412,855 votes which gained them 1 seat, and the SNP 491,386 which gained them 6 seats.

I guess thats one of the issues of the FPTP system...

Do you think Conservative voters are more likely to turn out to vote at General Elections than voters for other parties then Criseyde? It was only a 0.9% swing in favour of the Conservatives, less than all the other parties, so I wouldn't say it was a particularly strong result for them in a GE.

You are normally strong on statistics! Do you really think its fair to condemn those 412,000 people as not existing?

The problem is, when you are tying to set up a new society, if you do it on the premise of intolerance towards quite a sizeable political preference, its not going to be a very nice place to live.

But in an iScotland the Conservatives would have had more seats through PR...

But the 412,000 people who vote Conservative in Scotland are represented. In fact they get more seats in Scotland under the MMS system than they do under FPTP.

And I don't see any evidence of "intolerance" towards Scottish Conservative MSPs whatsoever - on the contrary, a great deal of respect for party figures like Ruth Davidson and Annabel Goldie. It isn't "intolerance" for the majority of voters to reject right-wing politics.

I'm not dodging anything Criseyde. I personally don't choose to debate Thatcher's policies because I prefer to focus on what's happening now but I do not dispute they had a huge impact on Scotland.

But my point was more that I don't think it's that Scots are inherently as left wing as we are being portrayed. I think part of that left wing bias is actually because there is a cultural hatred, rightly or wrongly, of our more right wing party. I think the number of people who voted UKIP, albeit with a poor turn out, says something. And that if a new centre right party was to emerge they could actually do pretty well. My Opinion. Lots of I Think in there, for anyone who wants to say I present opinions as facts

"Judging by the shocking number of Scots who can't spell and struggle with literacy on independence debates on Facebook, it isn't very satisfactory."

Ha, same can be said for the English education system! I've two cousins who were educated in England (large city outside of London) and they cannot spell at all. It's atrocious. I'm embarrassed for them both, tbh.

Pot kettle much Chelsy!!

But by all means, talk about 412,000 people instead. Its probably harder to dismiss 412,000 people.

Do their views not count? Or do they not count as much as other voters? I mention it because it is solidly drummed into us in Scotland that Scotland is a left wing, socialist country and you would easily be led to believe that no-one votes Conservative at all, or at least none of any number, and that everyone thinks the same.

Chelsy I'm not sure why you are having a go at me, I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I'm not disputing the Tory voters who do exist, I'm commenting on why there are not more of them. Different points

Criseyde And I don't see any evidence of "intolerance" towards Scottish Conservative MSPs whatsoever - on the contrary, a great deal of respect for party figures like Ruth Davidson and Annabel Goldie. It isn't "intolerance" for the majority of voters to reject right-wing politics.

But this is a very polite thread. You must surely have come across the hate-comments that Conservative politicians receive?

"Do you think Conservative voters are more likely to turn out to vote at General Elections than voters for other parties then Criseyde?"

I think that's very hard to say. I'd have to presume that they are no more nor less inclined to turn out than any other potential voter. I suppose you could argue that, given the centre-left political consensus that's characterised Scottish politics for decades, that a Conservative voter might have particularly strong personal political opinions and would therefore be more inclined to turn out than the average voter. I suppose the demographic profile Conservative voters might also place them within a group who, statistically, are more likely to turn out and vote. But that's just speculation really.

www.scottishconservatives.com/people/msps/ I'm not quite sure why you're discussing Tories at WM, but there are 15 out of 129 in HR, so Tory voters are represented, and no doubt will continue to be so in iScotland.

Do their views not count? Or do they not count as much as other voters? I mention it because it is solidly drummed into us in Scotland that Scotland is a left wing, socialist country and you would easily be led to believe that no-one votes Conservative at all, or at least none of any number, and that everyone thinks the same.

Of course they count, hence why the WM FPTP system doesn't work.

You must surely have come across the hate-comments that Conservative politicians receive?

Of course. There are trolls everywhere. All politicians are subjected to it, the Conservatives no more than others in the public eye.

"I'm not dodging anything Criseyde"

I didn't mean to say that you were dodging anything, Statistically. Just that I hear the argument that voters in Scotland don't vote for the Conservatives because of the cultural memory of Conservatism quite a lot - and it doesn't address the fact that this - painful - cultural memory of Conservative government is a direct result of Conservative policies.

Chelsy, I'm not talking about this thread in particular. I generally find that people have a lot of respect for figures like R Davidson and A Goldie, irrespective of their Conservative policies. I don't know exactly what you mean by "intolerance" of right wing politics. The majority of voters in Scotland choose to reject right wing parties at the ballot box - you can't make them like right wing parties.

Of course they count, hence why the WM FPTP system doesn't work.

Or you could argue that there has been manipulation of political boundaries, not least due to Labour being in power for so long. I wonder how they would go about doing that? Does anyone have any ideas?

Certainly, the Conservative vote seems spread more widely across the country, rather than fitting neatly into constituency boundaries.

I would say that's quite a strong vote, bearing in mind how unlikely they are to gain many seats and the strong vitriol constantly aimed at them.

"Or you could argue that there has been manipulation of political boundaries, not least due to Labour being in power for so long. I wonder how they would go about doing that? Does anyone have any ideas?"

I think that's clutching at straws really. In fact the last WM party to try and alter boundaries was....the Conservative Party. Who also wanted to cut the number of MPs. Giving everyone even less representation under FPTP.

Or you could argue that there has been manipulation of political boundaries, not least due to Labour being in power for so long

But irrespective of the boundaries, surely FPTP is going to disenfranchise an awful lot of people?

I hardly think that the result in Scotland smacks of Conservatives changing boundaries to suit themselves. Or if they did so, it have been the most massive failure.

There is a lot of corruption in Scotland, like it or not. I've heard of council house tenants being moved, of backhanders being given in the form of new build houses by developers to relatives of councillors for granting pp (big scandal in East Kilbride a few years back involving Jack McConnell's constituency I seem to remember).

And then of course there is the more insidious constant pressure that no-one votes Conservative, everyone in Scotland is left wing and socialist and you must vote in a similar way.

This is a recognised psychological response in humans called social facilitation. We want to be like other people.

itsallgoingtobefine

Yes, there seem to be a disproportionate amount of bigots where I live atm. At least, I hope it is disproportionate.

I don't really know what you're asking for here, Chelsy. For more voters in Scotland to vote Conservative so that the small proportion of existing Conservative voters don't feel left out?

Chelsy Your last post seems a bit incoherent, and TBH the things you post sometimes smack of paranoia. Perhaps you should take a break from these threads for a while? I hid the last few and felt much better for it

I do remember an article I read recently (although cannot recall where) of the phenomenon of the 'secret Tory' whereby nobody would admit voting Tory but clearly lots did and do.

That doesn't surprise me OOAOML. I also know a lot of people who say they agree with Tory policies - especially on things like the benefit cap - but then say "but I'd never vote for a Tory" bla bla bla.

I do remember an article I read recently (although cannot recall where) of the phenomenon of the 'secret Tory' whereby nobody would admit voting Tory but clearly lots did and do.

There's certainly been a lot of stuff about the "shy" No vote...

In the Glasgow I knew to align oneself with the Tories often meant aligning with the English. Racism against England has been endemic in Scotland for years and years. It only appears to have been tolerated because of the rather painful history of Culloden - a sort of acceptable response so to speak. We always seem to forget that there were English and Scottish forces on both sides. Extraordinary that we seem to have better relations with Japan and Germany than with our friends and cousins south of the Border.