to ask where indyref Part 5 is?

[grovel]

Well?

Criseyde Again, Chelsy, I don't entirely understand what you mean by tolerance. Earlier you seemed to be implying that more Scottish people should vote Tory because otherwise the relatively slim percentage of people who voted Tory might feel a bit lonely. If you want to convince people of the need to vote for a right wing parts, you're going to have to convince them of the value of right wing policies, not just intimate that they are making right wing voters feel left out.

And there was me thinking that tolerance was a widely understood concept.

By tolerance, I mean not bitterly criticising and becoming abusive about other people's perfectly legitimate political preferences.

I'm horrified that you thought I implied that more people should vote Conservative. The point I was making is that the intolerant rhetoric in Scotland can be such that if you weren't aware of the voting figures, you might assume that the Conservative vote was negligible. I know I certainly did until I checked.

I'm not seeking to convince anyone of anything. People can vote how they like. I simply like the truth.

"By tolerance, I mean not bitterly criticising and becoming abusive about other people's perfectly legitimate political preferences."

It's hard to see how you can have frank political debate without criticising the politics of other parties. I suppose different people will have different ideas about what comes across as bitter. I hear plenty said about Labour policies - or SNP politicians - that could come across as bitter, or potentially abusive.

But I don't think anyone can blame a low percentage of votes for the Conservatives on a lack of tolerance, really. They just don't represent an ideology that convinces many people in Scotland.

I didn't say there was a low percentage of Conservative votes at all Criseyde. That was you.

All that stuff about ideology - do you really think many people are that stupid to fall for the "if I mention it then it becomes true" stuff?

You are not actually fighting a battle with a conservative voter here.

Its astonishing that you have managed to avoid the abusive comments regarding political choice that currently plague Scotland. Its almost as convincing as no Yes supporters being able to provide a valid explanation for the Scottish Parliament's blithe lack of concern for the state of Edinburgh.

I was being sarcastic there, just in case you were still in say it and it happens mode.

There is a low percentage of Conservative votes. Doesn't matter who said it.

You don't like the term ideology? Ok, beliefs, values and political strategy. Same thing.

Didn't ever say or think I was "fighting a battle with a conservative voter". Just having a chat.

Re edinburgh - I've commented on that a couple of times. Specifically, I've asked you what legislative action you would like the SP to take?

Chelsy, you keep going on and on about corruption in Edinburgh CC. If you have evidence, take it to the police. I'm not quite sure what you expect the Parliament to do about it, maybe change legislation for the future, but that seems a rather long-winded way of tackling what you allege to be current, longterm and ongoing criminal behaviour.

I have experienced "racism" - in two different circumstances in my life.

First was as a child when I was teased at primary school 'cos I was South African (which upset me 'cos as far as I was concerned I was Scottish even if I did have strange surname and parents with accents ).

Second was when, after graduating from St Andrews (which had further softened my already Bearsden/Milngavie "posh" accent), I was working in the South East and came across the stingy Scots casual racism attitude, along with stupid abuse in pubs. I never blamed "the English" (in the same way as a child, I didn't blame "the Scots") - I just learned to laugh at their inadequacies.

Going back a bit and slightly OT but Roseformeplease - your comments about CfE don't match with my experience. Admittedly, I'm not a teacher like you abd ds is only in S3 but last year in S2 he was studying Steinbeck (Of Mice & Men), Kidnapped and in S1 Shakespeare (and that's just what he's told me about ) Don't know yet what he's doing this year as he's at the stage of only letting me know if he needs help And he seems to be well stretched in his other subjects. As a matter of course at his school they are studying 8 subjects, all of which he expects to take to Nat 5.

One of his friends' mother is Head of English at a school (not in Glasgow) and she speaks highly of CfE - and in fact criticises ds' school for "manipulating" the BGE element of CfE. It makes pupils choose subjects in S2 so that they have enough time to do the required depth of study for 8 Nat 5s in S4. I'm happy with them doing that as ds is bright - but I can see her point as ds no longer does any "arty" subject (can't remember the BGE category), as they conflicted with the subjects he did want to do (Geography, Chemistry, Physics and PE iirc - all of which were non-negotiables as far as he was concerned).

What educational system doesn't have some people who don't like it?

Having a few critics is hardly an excuse to lambast the entire system and then to take that as a reason against independence.

Polls show that satisfaction with the Scottish government is high.

If we can run the police, health, education, transport, social services well then why can't we run our tax and benefits?

Or is it what johann lamont said that we are not genetically capable of leading?

Lots of Scottish people wanted Devo max but Westminster stopped us from getting that. Independence is closer to that than the status quo of power where the big decisions are made at a table scotland isn't invited to.

The Police force is experiencing serious, serious issues after being centralised.

There are many many leading educators raising continuing concerns over CfE, years into its implementation.

The Scottish nhs is falling apart. Local headlines in my paper are about fixing figures re beds and Ops, equipment covered in faeces and vomit..

Transport - let's look at the Edinburgh Tram story....

Social services... again a service full of difficulties and issues.

These things are all full of difficulties and issues across the entire UK.

Are you saying that Scottish mistakes / poor practice will automatically be better than British mistakes / poor practice JUST because they are Scottish?

OldLady Chelsy, you keep going on and on about corruption in Edinburgh CC. If you have evidence, take it to the police. I'm not quite sure what you expect the Parliament to do about it, maybe change legislation for the future, but that seems a rather long-winded way of tackling what you allege to be current, longterm and ongoing criminal behaviour

The evidence has already been taken to the police. The police investigated. The PF dropped all charges as mysteriously "not in the public interest". 8 ex-employees of City of Edinburgh Council were charged with fraud in relation to issuing statutory notices for millions of pounds (and you can bet that's only the tip of the iceberg), yet charges were of course dropped. Do you actually know what they are doing? They are ruining people's lives by issuing statutory notices for unnecessary work, overcharging massively and damaging properties by using favoured contractors and giving them backhanders. Many with extensive criminal records. Find out about what is going on in your own country before telling people to vote for independence?

You do know that trying to get evidence from City of Edinburgh Council tends to result in refusals or scored out paragraphs for "economic reasons"?

That's only statutory notices. The tram system build was a disaster, public services are run down, a girl died in a badly maintained school, people are having to take the Council to the Small Claims court to get money overpaid for statutory notices. You can't even find out the payout for the Head of Property when he was sacked recently. What does the Scottish Parliament do? Investigate it? Hold a public enquiry? No. It passes legislation taking property matters out of the remit of Small Claims, which have proved an effective and affordable remedy, and into that of secretive property tribunals, which are not public courts.

Sounds more like hell than eutopia to me.

Surely it is the Parliament's job to tackle it, rather than blaming someone for discussing it? If only more Scottish people would become interested in stuff like this, rather than buying into the frenzy of one side against another that gets whipped up in Scottish politics. But maybe too many people have a finger in the pie.

Chelsy the Edinburgh statutory notices story has dropped off my radar. I hadn't realised charges had been dropped!

There seems to me having lived on both sides of the border that public services (most of my experience is with education) are far LESS accountable to the ordinary person in Scotland. Which is at odds with the rhetoric that I am hearing.

Good morning.

"a table Scotland isn't invited to" - could you explain?

Provided the promises that have been made to give much greater tax-raising/distribution powers to Scotland aren't reneged on, after a no vote Scotland will be much closer to 'devo max'.

Provided the promises that have been made to give much greater tax-raising/distribution powers to Scotland aren't reneged on, after a no vote Scotland will be much closer to 'devo max'.

But that's a MASSIVE proviso. Successive governments could have out in place theses additional powers, but they haven't. Yes suddenly they are apparently on the table, AFTER the WM government insisted devo-max couldn't be on the ballot. And government promises mean nothing - especially when they come up with vague pledges and no specifics, and haven't introduced any bills for more powers etc.

Do you REALLY think that I'd we vote no to more power they'll give us more power? Seriously?

Scotland isn't holding an independence referendum because it's already perfect. It is so that we can create a country that we want to live in. And we can!

The big challenge will be how we keep this amazing ground swell of people who are moving towards independence engaged after the 18th. Will we feel we have DONE IT and that we can relax? Not at all!!

The next huge step will be to create a new Scotland!

The momentum is with Yes.

Are you saying that Scottish mistakes / poor practice will automatically be better than British mistakes / poor practice JUST because they are Scottish?

Yes. Many of things you list are dependent on funding/control from WM, so ScotGov is severely constrained in what it can do.

Furthermore if a party in Scottish government puts in place things that most Scots don't like then the Scottish electorate has the power to vote them out. The same does not apply to the WM government.

Scotland isn't holding an independence referendum because it's already perfect. It is so that we can create a country that we want to live in

this

It will take many years for Scots to mould their new country.

That's why I said "Provided," but in the (likely) event of the votes being close it would be very difficult for the next government to go back on that I'd have thought.

chelsy and bardarbunga

corruption is rife, as it ever has been.
public officials are ever less accountable to the public (over the border too)

but there is this 'head in the clouds' wishful thinking going on

deedee I am sure your comment: "Scotland isn't holding an independence referendum because it is already perfect" is tongue in cheek but that is the sort of response to informed enquiry that is being offered by many in the Yes camp. It is scary.

choccoluvva I wondered where that table was too?

but in the (likely) event of the votes being close it would be very difficult for the next government to go back on that I'd have thought.

What would make it difficult? They will do what is mostly likely to keep/get them in power, Scots make up a tiny %age of the UK electorate and can be safely ignored when making UK policy.

ItsAllGoing I admire your optimism, and I'm sorry I can't share it!

FWIW, if there's a No result, but close, as the polls are predicting at the moment, I don't think Westminster could ignore the figures. There would be lots on the table to play for. DevoMax will sell really well in the rUK remember, after all the fuss over Scots taking far more than they contribute..

but there is this 'head in the clouds' wishful thinking going on

Otherwise known as "ambition"

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Scottish mistakes/poor practice will automatically be better than British mistakes... JUST because they are Scottish

By that logic an independent Scotland would not rejoin the EU and suffer the 'mistakes' and 'poor practice' of Brussels. (I know there is a planned referendum on British membership of the EU and the possibility of a vote to leave the EU, but I really don't think there will be a majority vote in favour of leaving.)

Off topic yet not:

firstchoice I just can't imagine a Rotherham style report coming out in Scotland. Where a council gets someone independent in to look at failings over many years and effectively sponsors a damning report!

DevoMax will sell really well in the rUK remember, after all the fuss over Scots taking far more than they contribute

I could be wrong but I thought all the parties were proposing different variations of tax-raising powers in the event of a No vote? This is not devo-max. Increased tax-rasing powers is not enough to change things.

You see nothing amazing and powerful in the sight if half the country and more still coming deciding to take a step into uncertain future together, but bonded by energy, positivity and high ideals ?

Just scarey.

People finding their voices, engaging with politics, challenging inequalities, committing to putting their time and hearts into a new country? Not even a tiny bit amazing?

I think actually the bigger challenge after we win will be helping all you scared people help us get on with it, and not wobble the markets with your fears.