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to ask where indyref Part 5 is?

999 replies

grovel · 04/09/2014 14:49

Well?

OP posts:
frankie80 · 05/09/2014 11:45

When can we start asking questions for the webchat? Will there be a vote on which questions get asked? Like for Hilary Clinton?

deeedeee · 05/09/2014 12:02

Scotland has a mountain to climb to achieve independance if the vote is yes. All the people that vote yes need to commit theirselves to the journey.

But it can happen. Life is about more than economics and a country is full of people, not just bank accounts. As one scottish mountain climber once said

"Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, the providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way.
Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it!"

If the yes vote wins, then we all have to commit ourselves, don't run away and cause your predictions to happen. Build a new Scotland, that can inspire the rest of the uk to build a new uk.

ChelsyHandy · 05/09/2014 12:06

Deeedeee Self believe, courage, confidence, ambition! I will not see these things lambasted! And neither will the majority of the country. You'll see!

Oh for heaven's sake, get over yourself. You're not an extra in Braveheart. Neither do you "speak for the masses" as you seem to believe.

I'm really fecked off that people like you are putting the value of my house, which I work bloody hard to pay for, at risk. Obviously property values are going to plummet. Some of you are pedalling this as a benefit of independence!

I would also like to live in a country which stays roughly the same from one day to the next. I work in an industry which has been thrown into absolute turmoil due to the economic uncertainty created by the Referendum, and some clients have sold up their holdings, at a loss, and got out of Scotland because the risk is too great.

Obviously if it looked promising that it was going to become a highly efficient, competent, non-corrupt successful country run by people who weren't at all blinded by ideology and likely to treat its citizens fairly, then very few people would object to it at all.

Why do you think people are objecting to it? Fear? I hardly think not wanting your job to be put at risk, your family's security, your house value is fear. Common sense I'd call it. And considering that many of those who intend to vote No work in responsible jobs in Scotland, you are basically saying that a large segment of the population either doesn't know its own mind (and therefore shouldn't have any kind of responsible job) or are too cowardly to do anything for themselves, including thinking.

That's not at all logical.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 05/09/2014 12:07

oh lordy, you are sounding evangelical

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 05/09/2014 12:07

to deedee need I add

Roseformeplease · 05/09/2014 12:10

The quality of the education system in Scotland very much relies on the school your children attend - which is not as it should be.

How is this right? How is there such terrible inequality between schools? Surely all Scotland's children should be given equal chances? Look at the figures for schools which vary wildly from one area to the next. Now, inevitable comparisons will be made with England. But there is a crucial difference. In England, massive discussion has gone on about how poor some schools are and efforts (whether you agree with the way it has been done or not, effort has been made) have been made to make changes for the benefit of pupils. The Scottish Government put no new money into Curriculum for Excellence. No money for textbooks or additional training. Every time teachers complained, they bunged an extra Inservice Day at us, giving parents a headache about childcare.

Where is the big vision to tackle the inequalities that mean that in some parts of Glasgow few pupils make it to University or get 5 good Highers?

Oh, and you can't blame Westminster, because it is devolved. I know the SNP have tried with the NHS but imagine what could be done with, for example, charging tuition fees to those whose parents are higher rate taxpayers to pay for chances for the most impoverished? Or charging for prescriptions to those in work and earning over a certain amount?

These are headline, eye-catching "free" policies but they have to be paid for and I feel that they are being paid for by the children in the most deprived areas in Scotland. One of the best ways of tackling inequality is through high quality educational provision. Oh, that we had that!

And the "consultation" has been entirely managed to make sure that parents and teachers are not really allowed to say what they think. Even the biggest teaching union is in the pocket of government and is not a force for good.

squoosh · 05/09/2014 12:11

That post was indeed a bit fromage heavy.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 05/09/2014 12:12

Chelsy quite

As I said on previous thread, we will almost certainly have to uproot our whole lives if there's a Yes vote, due to DH's job.

But how the hell are we supposed to do that if we can't sell our house?

So all this blind faith in the bright sunlit uplands of an independent Scotland is beginning to piss me off.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 05/09/2014 12:13

Why do you think people are objecting to it? Fear? I hardly think not wanting your job to be put at risk, your family's security, your house value is fear. Common sense I'd call it.

I know I get jumped on every time I point this out but it really is very obviously true:

The above quote typifies a no voter perfectly, concern about the short term impact on them.

Yes voters on the other hand rarely post about the immediate impact on their personal circumstances - they are more concerned with long term impact on Scotland as a whole.

Neither position is "wrong" but they are poles apart, and why most people on these threads will not change their mind, yes and no just see things in fundamentally different ways.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 05/09/2014 12:14

and before anyone says, 'well it's not all about you', well of course not.

But just some recognition of the uncertainty and economic disruption that a Yes vote will cause would be nice.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 05/09/2014 12:16

But just some recognition of the uncertainty and economic disruption that a Yes vote will cause would be nice.

Has anyone said there won't be any?

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 05/09/2014 12:18

oh come on, the implication all along from the Yes side is that it won't be such a big deal.

So having no currency, no membership of the EU, no central bank, no record for borrowing on the markets - but it's OK, because ItsAllGoingToBeFine

ChelsyHandy · 05/09/2014 12:19

Bardabunga (best wishes with your eruption...) Chelsy the Edinburgh statutory notices story has dropped off my radar. I hadn't realised charges had been dropped!

www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-20465642

15 employees/former employees charged. All charges dropped. Remarkable isn't it, considering the number of people still taking civil action. Also remarkable is the millions (and rising) the Council are paying Deloittes to try and wriggle their way out of it for them - not particularly successfully.

The honest thing to do would be to write off any existing debts and settle any claims (does the Edinburgh taxpayer really want to pay millions in legal fees (their own solicitors don't do it so they have a top whack Edinburgh firm act for them in defence) for its Council to defend this?). I would like to see the Parliament (a) making some steps of its own back to investigate this and other scandals, and (b) compelling the suggested solution - which is no different from the solution any private individual would be seeking in a legal action like this.

There seems to me having lived on both sides of the border that public services (most of my experience is with education) are far LESS accountable to the ordinary person in Scotland. Which is at odds with the rhetoric that I am hearing.

Oh no, you are spot on there. But people blinded by ideology will tell you black is white, if it fits in with what they think you should believe.

LadyCordeliaFlyte · 05/09/2014 12:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wearenotinkansas · 05/09/2014 12:19

I am not sure that losing one's job and having to move your whole family to a different country to get a new one is a "short term impact"

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 05/09/2014 12:19

fgs, AS has even said that if there's no CU Scotland can just forget about it's share of debt.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 05/09/2014 12:22

thank you wearenot - but we are but individuals caught in the grand sweep of Braveheart the Nats Plan so we should just suck it up.

ChelsyHandy · 05/09/2014 12:24

Itsallgoingtobefine Yes voters on the other hand rarely post about the immediate impact on their personal circumstances - they are more concerned with long term impact on Scotland as a whole.

Well, no-one's stopping them. Is it because they tend to fall into a particular demographic perhaps?

I found it telling that the 3 most entrenched, fanciful Yes supporters on these threads assumed that I was using a different username, rather than being at work, when I simply didn't post for a few days. Because being busy at work seemed to be a concept they found entirely beyond their ken.

WhatWouldFreddieDo any ideas/solutions on the house devaluation problem? Better to sell sooner rather than later I guess, but already probably lost some value. Who on earth is going to want a house next to a city facing mass redundancies and loss of entire industries? The jobs for the boys lot and favoured contractors already have their vans parked outside the £1/2 million plus new builds that they favour. Depending on them buying for their children seems a limited sort of market.

Sallyingforth · 05/09/2014 12:25

Well, I looked in here this morning and I found this:

Infact if yes wins, which it's looking increasingly likely it will, everyone will need to put away their fears and work together. Or else it will be your fault it fails.

Gosh, deedee, victim blaming at its finest!

wearenotinkansas · 05/09/2014 12:25

you're welcome Wink

ChelsyHandy · 05/09/2014 12:27

I guess I could dumn myself down, pretend I'm a bit thick and suck up to some men on the council to get a council job. Pretend I'm something I am not. Even then I'd need the Scandinavian style enhanced salary to pay the high taxes and pay the negative equity mortgage on a house I no longer want, in a country I no longer feel comfortable living in.

Doesn't appeal. It sounds like hell on earth.

ChelsyHandy · 05/09/2014 12:28

Sallyingforth Infact if yes wins, which it's looking increasingly likely it will, everyone will need to put away their fears and work together. Or else it will be your fault it fails. Gosh, deedee, victim blaming at its finest!

I thought they'd already decided in advance that a No vote was going to be the BBC's fault?

Roseformeplease · 05/09/2014 12:29

Would any of the financial services folk on here lay out really clearly for others what they think the immediate, medium term and long term problems of independence will be for everyone? I feel I am pretty clear about the shock to mortgages, interest rates, taxes etc but I would appreciate it being spelled out by someone with more knowledge about it than I have.

Not to mention the long term impact of the vast movement of money and population that will follow a vote for independence and the effect that will have on everyone.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 05/09/2014 12:30

Chelsy the market has stalled where we are, of course - my parents who are close by have been trying to sell since May and it's been dead.

There'll be a lot suddenly coming on the market, so prices will do what prices do in those circs - although plenty on here don't seem to believe in market forces Grin

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 05/09/2014 12:30

I am not sure that losing one's job and having to move your whole family to a different country to get a new one is a "short term impact

Sorry, should have been more specific. Short term in the life of a country perhaps.

So having no currency

Now that's just ridiculous. Of course Scotland will have a currency. £ in the short term, then euro/own currency depending on which is best.

no membership of the EU

So you genuinely think the EU will be happy with losing Scotland? Our fishing? Our oil? Our renewables? Scotland deporting all EU residents. EU deporting all Scots? You really think that will happen?

no central bank

Depending on negotiations we could either set up or own or share BOE. We have plenty of assets in Scotland.

no record for borrowing on the markets

I'm not sure that no record isn't better than the UKs record. Rating agencies (who know more than I do) have said Scotland would be pretty credit worthy.

AS has even said that if there's no CU Scotland can just forget about it's share of debt.

The debt belongs to the UK, not to Scotland. Treasury has already confirmed this. If Scotland is not entitled to a share of financial assets both tangible and intangible why on earth would it take on a share of debt.