Page 12 | to ask where indyref Part 5 is?

Criseyde · 05/09/2014 10:33

Yes, it's entirely logical that Scottish people should relinquish any ideas about political independence because "we all live on the same island", but this doesn't apply to Ireland, apparently. An "arbitrary" border is just fine and dandy there.

Well you'd better put the word out to Ireland, Cyprus, Hispaniola - hell, why not Spain and Portugal, South Africa and Lesotho, Norway and Sweden, the US and Canada... Political will is irrelevant. Never mind your different political traditions, civic cultures and legal systems - the only thing that should determine your form of government is the fact that you share the same landmass!

Glad we got that cleared up.

Celticlass2 · 05/09/2014 10:33

Chocaluva you make the classic mistake of the No voters by trying to define a country and people by it's GDP. Ireland is about much more than economics, and ask any irish person if they ever regretted independance and you will get some very strange looks!
You are also wrong about Ireland not doing very well. How patronising!
It had made an amazing recovery! It's education system is miles ahead if the Uk as well , particularly the English and Welsh systems.

Celticlass2 · 05/09/2014 10:36

Woukd you like to live in the UAE Choca#, just because it us rich?

Celticlass2 · 05/09/2014 10:37

Because it is rich even.

BardarbungaBardarbing · 05/09/2014 10:40

Celtic I agree that there seems to be only one direction atm. But the rapid swing to Yes will have left a lot of No voters in shock and I for example, usually pretty sanguine about right to self determination etc, would find myself in in a bit of a personal identity crisis on the 19th. I'd be happier if I had another 5-10 years to plan for this!

Worst result for cohesion would be 51% yes. 49% Yes says independence is on the way as the younger generation seem more Scotland-centric.

squoosh · 05/09/2014 10:41

I'm Irish and don't know a single Irish person who regrets Ireland becoming a republic. Yes the economy went through a monumentally shit period recently but it's coming through it and never once in the whole dissection of the financial crisis did one person ever suggest 'oh if only we were still part of the UK'.

BardarbungaBardarbing · 05/09/2014 10:41

Are your children in the Scottish system CelticLass?

LadyCordeliaFlyte · 05/09/2014 10:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

deeedeee · 05/09/2014 10:49

It's not ridiculous to believe and have confidence. These are qualities that build amazing things! Without them nothing would be built ever.

It's what you start with and then you build. Fear and cynicism never built anything.

And if you needed a book full of firm answers and assurances before you started anything worthwhile then the NHS wouldn't exist! Infact no business would exist. Show me a business that had it's entire outgoings and Incomings on paper before it was started. If that was a prerequisite for starting anything we would build nothing!

Self believe, courage, confidence, ambition! I will not see these things lambasted! And neither will the majority of the country. You'll see!

deeedeee · 05/09/2014 10:51

Lady c, I'm not literally going to hunt you down and berate you! It's bigger than that.

I really think that if you won't need blaming. If yes wins, if this incredible surge of people who want to build something together continues growing, then you'll see for yourselves.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 05/09/2014 10:52

Or whether the people of Yorkshire, cornwall etc are better governed by those living in Yorkshire, Cornwall etc....

Of course they are! And if the people of those regions want more powers they need to ask for them, as the Scottish people have.

The difference between Scotland and England is an arbitrary border, which has changed many times

But there is a "Scotland" and an "England". They are both individual countries, that in the past were also independent countries. They are not known as North UK and South UK.

The people of Scotland are no different or better than the people of the rUK.

We do tend to vote rather differently but apart from that I agree. It is not about differences it is about self-determination. The people of Scotland voted for devolution - do you think they should have been denied that as well? If the people of Shetland, or Yorkshire, or Cornwall as a group of people living in that area democratically vote for independence they should get it.

We all live on the same island - it's not even a large island.

That is not important. The Isle of Man is tiny, but independent. As they say, its not the size, but what you do with it

Celticlass2 · 05/09/2014 10:52

Barda No. We are living in Wales, and will be for the next four years or so, with DH"s Job.
My DD is in the Welsh system. There are problems with it no doubt, but she is very happy. She's taken a real shine to Welsh language as well and is really good at it.

deeedeee · 05/09/2014 10:53

Or actually lady c, I might come and find you! Just cause I like you !

Original poster

grovel · 05/09/2014 10:54

8 out of 10 startup companies fail, deeedeee. They're all founded on self-belief and optimism.

OP posts:

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 05/09/2014 10:58

8 out of 10 startup companies fail, deeedeee. They're all founded on self-belief and optimism.

TBF that was a pretty bad analogy. Scotland is not starting from nothing - a company restructuring might be a better analogy?

BardarbungaBardarbing · 05/09/2014 11:00

I love (trying) to speak Welsh but have struggled to get "into" it as I live too far away and don't visit any more!

The English system as I experienced it was excellent and responsive to parents. Scottish system I've met with "that's how this council does it" brick wall. Now with CfE the schools are getting some autonomy but it is resulting in some frankly weird effects. Just anecdotes I know. (But I read MN for the anecdotal accounts!)

BardarbungaBardarbing · 05/09/2014 11:01

That was to CelticLass.

TeamScotland · 05/09/2014 11:07

Marking place, still yes

wearenotinkansas · 05/09/2014 11:07

Bardarbunga - that brick wall response is what I have come across too. Mainly in education but in other areas too. Our local council seem to have no wish to engage, and the councillors seem to be completely impotent to achieve anything for their wards.

(sorry - bit off topic maybe?)

BardarbungaBardarbing · 05/09/2014 11:14

Somehow I feel it is the same topic, it's about an unresponsive state. The pervasive notion that to point out an issue is a bit of a liberty, actually.

wearenotinkansas · 05/09/2014 11:17

yes, that seems to be right. Since I moved here I've been trying to figure out what is behind it. I had assumed it was just our council but posters from other parts of Scotland have made similar comments higher up the thread.

I slightly wonder if it is because there has been such a left wing consensus for so long that there is no vigorous opposition. (and I say that as a left winger).

firstchoice · 05/09/2014 11:21

Brick wall sums it up.

But it goes right up to the current Scottish Parliament.
Right to the very top. No different to any other place, in that respect.

It is wilful blindness to claim otherwise and wilful wishfulness to think it will 'all be ok' on the 19th September just because Scotland might be independent by then.
If it is then there will need to be root and branch reform for things to improve and corruption to reduce.
I really hope that happens.

I have my doubts because:
A. Vested interests will still be vested interests
B. there is this dangerous, complacent, 'it will all be magic and luffly and scottish then' attitude

But I would genuinely LOVE to be proved wrong. I really would.

Then maybe rUK can be cleaned up too, following iScotland's example?

But, this could all be achieved without breaking up the UK, if there was enough will.

firstchoice · 05/09/2014 11:22

The saying where I am is:

"it's aye been" - ie it's always been that way and we don't like (outsiders) questioning it.
If you continue to do so then we can (and will) make life very difficult for you indeed.

prettybird · 05/09/2014 11:26

Have to say, I've been very happy with ds' education so far and my experience of CfE (admittedly he is only in S3). Parent Council of ds' school is also working with headteacher to feed back some of its (constructive) comments on the first year of exams. Headteacher does have concerns about certain elements of the new qualifications - particularly with the Nat 4s and how they are assessed but seems to be taking a pragmatic and practical approach.

And our local councillor is brilliant - but as the only Tory on the council, he has no party line to follow within the council so is free to lobby on behalf of his constituents.

But this is Off Topic

Celticlass2 · 05/09/2014 11:30

Bardar I'm not very good at welsh either , but know a few words here and there. My DD is good at other languages well, so i think she just has a flair for them.
I have a Scottish friend who moved back to Scotland having lived in wales for 5 years. she has had a really good experience of the Scottish education system, and finds it much more of a rounded Curriculum. I have no experience of it at all, so just going by what she says.