to ask where indyref Part 5 is?

[grovel]

Well?

itsall you said, re the promised extra powers, "and government promises mean nothing"

I feel exactly the same about the White Paper. So I say back to you, do you really think I will vote yes based on vague pledges and a wishlist which is not backed up by any evidence or honest costings.

By that logic an independent Scotland would not rejoin the EU and suffer the 'mistakes' and 'poor practice' of Brussels.

Independence within the EU is a lot more than we have at the moment. However, if a majority of Scots felt that then as an independent country we could decide to leave the EU rather than sticking with whatever the SE of England wants.

(I know there is a planned referendum on British membership of the EU and the possibility of a vote to leave the EU, but I really don't think there will be a majority vote in favour of leaving.)

I think that it is very likely that they will, but that is just a matter of opinion. What is important is that decision will be made by SE England, Scots views will have no impact.

I think actually the bigger challenge after we win will be helping all you scared people help us get on with it, and not wobble the markets with your fears.

It's patronising comments like that that make me even more entrenched in my 'no' position
Keep them coming

but there is this head in the clouds wishful thinking going on

otherwise known as ambition

I assume you think ambition is a good quality. According to your claims about how incredibly difficult it is to have any say in Westminster, it is more ambitious to want to improve the lot of all those people in UK who are suffering deprivation. You are the one who is lacking ambition by copping out of the union.

I feel exactly the same about the White Paper. So I say back to you, do you really think I will vote yes based on vague pledges and a wishlist which is not backed up by any evidence or honest costings.

Of course not! The white paper is an SNP ambition. Different people see different things in an independent Scotland. What is important, really the only important thing, is whether Scotland is better governed by those living in Scotland, or by WM.

According to your claims about how incredibly difficult it is to have any say in Westminster, it is more ambitious to want to improve the lot of all those people in UK who are suffering deprivation. You are the one who is lacking ambition by copping out of the union.

Scots building a better Scotland is very possible. Scots helping to build a better UK really is just wishful thinking are votes are too insignificant. If the UK wants to change things then the UK needs to vote for it. Not selfish, just realistic.

I'm not trying to change your mind wild thong. If yes wins it'll be your choice what to do.

Or whether the people of Yorkshire, cornwall etc are better governed by those living in Yorkshire, Cornwall etc....

The difference between Scotland and England is an arbitrary border, which has changed many times.

The people of Scotland are no different or better than the people of the rUK.

We all live on the same island - it's not even a large island.

Infact if yes wins, which it's looking increasingly likely it will, everyone will need to put away their fears and work together. Or else it will be your fault it fails. You, the person withdrawing your savings, selling your house, self fulfilling your prophecy. Make no mistake, it will be your fault.

Ah, so being ambitious for Scotland is good, but being ambitious for UK is unrealistic.

So setting up an independent country in one half of an island is a good thing whereas working to improve the lot of everyone on the island is an unrealistic thing to do?

deeedeee! Beyond ridiculous.

I feel exactly the same about the White Paper. So I say back to you, do you really think I will vote yes based on vague pledges and a wishlist which is not backed up by any evidence or honest costings.

This, absolutely! Events have moved so far I see no way for anyone to back out of further powers. As I said yesterday, I don't want to see those decided by a general election vote, I think it should be a second referendum. Although I haven't fully considered how that should be structured - I think there should be a review of how the entire UK is represented and governed.

It really confuses me that we are supposed to believe our politicians are somehow so superior and obviously going to stick to their pledges, but the ones in WM aren't. I've never fallen for an entire manifesto, and the White Paper is essentially a manifesto. It also really confuses me that in the event of a No vote WM will apparently be vile to us, but after a Yes vote they'll be falling over themselves to be nice to us.

And I repeat my pledge of yesterday - if after a No vote there are no additional powers I will be up there on the barricades with any Yes supporters who are prepared to work with me. I'm not campaigning for the status quo, I'm campaigning to stay in the UK and work to improve the whole UK. I do realise that there are people in all parts of the UK who think that is best done as separate countries, I think it's best done as part of the union. But, having been engaged by this debate, I'm not just going to slump back into inaction on the 19th (although if I could have the weekend off that would be great, I'm really struggling to fit everything into my time at the moment and I could do with a couple of long lies )

So the fault of the No voters both ways? Good cop-out.

Infact if yes wins, which it's looking increasingly likely it will, everyone will need to put away their fears and work together. Or else it will be your fault it fails. You, the person withdrawing your savings, selling your house, self fulfilling your prophecy. Make no mistake, it will be your fault.

No it won't. It will be the fault of the politicians who persuaded people to vote for them by making all sorts of promises but without any credible strategy as to how to deliver them.

Are yes going to win then? I still think it will be a no but close.

"We all live on the same island - it's not even a large island."

I suppose you are in favour of Irish reunification too?

deedee

It will be the fault of the no voters if an independent Scotland fails? Nice to see you're willing to take on full responsibility for the decision an independent Scotland makes!

Or you could blame the failings of an independent Scotland on rUK being spiteful.

A small majority of the electorate voting yes - remember that the entire electorate will not turn out - so a small yes majority will not be the majority of Scottish people and the rUK is not getting a vote - blaming everyone else for the failings of an independent Scotland.

Celtic I'm surprised by the unlikely peopel veering towards a yes. It's awfully dull being a No!

decisions an independent Scotland makes

Ireland's being in the UK was due to very different history!

Irish reunification. Republic of Ireland isn't doing too well.

I think now, it almost doesn't matter what way the vote goes. It seems that this is just the beginning of everything not the end!
Whichever side 'wins' there are going to be a sizeable proportion of the population which are not happy. That is not just going to go away.

You see nothing amazing and powerful in the sight if half the country and more still coming deciding to take a step into uncertain future together, but bonded by energy, positivity and high ideals ?

I find it unnerving actually. I'm suspicious of a Nationalist movement that appears to be sweeping people up in high ideals but with little hard facts or evidence behind it.

Ambition and wishful thinking are NOT the same.
Ambition is great. Lifeblood. Vital. Moves mountains.
Wishful thinking is: 'och, it cannae happen in Scotland cos we're great'.
This is dangerously naieve.

Corruption can and does (and will continue to) happen everywhere.

I live in an area of Scotland that is rife with corruption.
Illegal practices in our local Council, local Ed Dept, local hospital.
Reported. Those reports then ignored. Reported again. Threats made. Documents 'lost'. Documents re-supplied. Lost again. More threats. And so it goes on.

A charity currently offering help (based in Edinburgh) tells us that, of the whole of Scotland they cover, around 30% of their referrals are from our wee area alone. It is notorious. But it isn't JUST our area.

Sadly, a Rotherham style tragedy can happen anywhere.
I refer you to Operation Dash, a current operation by Police Scotland, which is already dealing with 35 cases of vunerable children in care exposed to Sexual abuse. (East Renfrewshire Council area alone). Far higher numbers expected.

I can experience ambition (hope) that things will improve.
I can try to make it happen (I have, on a personal level).
But past experience tells me that is just wishful thinking.

there is the difference.

me too Freddie.