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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Indyref Part 4

999 replies

SantanaLopez · 01/09/2014 21:11

Evening all :)

OP posts:
chocoluvva · 04/09/2014 10:37

Sorry, that was facetious. I couldn't resist.

My point about AS privatising, if that's what you mean by "dismantling" the welfare state some of the NHS, while claiming that he is protecting the NHS in Scotland from privatisation remains.

BardarbungaBardarbing · 04/09/2014 10:37

True about stability deeedee but I wouldn't knowingly vote for more instability (that as always will affect the poorer disproportionately.)

deeedeee · 04/09/2014 10:40

Fair enough, that's your choice. I respect that. I disagree, but that 's fairly obvious! Do look at what's actually happening though rather than the fear of what will happen.

frankblackswife · 04/09/2014 10:47

Good for you deeedeee that you are voting yes despite the fact that your husband might lose his job, I do admire that you put your principles before your family's stability.

I just can't bring myself to do that - in the event of a Yes vote my job will move to England, no ifs not buts, it's already been decided. It can't be any other way for legal/security reasons.
I don't want to move south, I really don't but my income is a large part of our family income (just under 40%). DH's job would be less affected but he is in a very specialized role which means him finding a job in the south would be very difficult, in fact nearly impossible. So what do we do? Live apart? Run two homes? Not an attractive prospect.

I am voting no because the facts do not stack up.
In my heart I am very proud to be Scottish and have no objections to Scotland being independent per se. BUT the White paper is shocking, too many assumptions and very few answers. In fact if I had submitted work of that quality to any of my projects my colleagues and senior managers would be asking some very serious questions about my credibility!

chocoluvva · 04/09/2014 10:50

Re no voters motivated by self-interest.

Many voters on both sides are voting out of perceived self-interest. But a vote for self-determination is by its very name self-ish, unless you know that individually, you will be worse off but are still voting for self-determination. I believe that the SNP knows that Scotland would take a huge economic hit from being independent, but won't admit to it. (AS has a degree in economics) And that many yes voters believe wrongly that they will be better off in an independent Scotland. That's the reason they are voting yes - nothing to do with the ideal of self-determination.

Obviously, some no voters are voting purely because they feel they will be worse off in an independent scotland but there are plenty of no voters who are motivated by the principle of working with our neighbours - the other half of the same island, after all, instead of competing with them.

chocoluvva · 04/09/2014 10:51

x-posting as usual. How do you lot manage to think/type so fast?

JimMurphysHump · 04/09/2014 10:51

But choco, you can still campaign for children in rUK to get a better deal. We have an opportunity in Scotland to get out of the union. The other countries don't have that opportunity. Us leaving won't make the rest of the UK any worse, really. There's no point in staying in the UK to improve lives for children in England. We don't have that option or that ability. Not exercising our right to improve the lives of folk in Scotland because of some feeling of solidarity with people in England is daft. It'd be like refusing to take a pay rise because you feel sorry for your colleagues who won't get one. It does them no good, just negatively impacts yourself.

OOAOML · 04/09/2014 10:52

I have more meetings today than yesterday, so not much time to dip in and out of the thread. A few quick points:

I'm voting No and I work in financial services. I'm not a banker. I'm not in a particularly high-flying fantastically well paid job. I do earn quite a bit more than my husband, who is in a low-paid part-time job. We don't live in a comfortable house, we live in a tenement flat. We get by.

My job is at serious risk of moving, that's true, but that isn't my only reason for voting No. Obviously, I talk a lot about the economic side of the argument, because that's the kind of environment I work in. But I also don't think the social benefits will be realisable - it isn't just that the numbers don't add up, but that we are being sold a list of promises that nobody would believe in a general election manifesto, but we are all supposed to accept now.

I don't believe that people in Scotland are a single left-leaning voting bloc. Nearly 17% voted Tory in 2010. Enough people voted UKIP to give us an MEP. Our votes don't massively influence the Westminster government, but pick any area with approx 5 million population and show me the impact of their votes. We do have our own Parliament, which legistlates on a significant proportion of the issues that affect daily lives. My sister lives in the North of England - she could similarly claim that her vote makes no difference, but she has no such representation.

We will still be electing politicians. Just because they are in Edinburgh rather than in London, is that going to make a difference? I hear a lot of people say 'I can get a bus to the Parliament'. For those of us who live near it, that's true. I wonder how many peoople do? I have been to protests there, and I've been to protests at the local Council. I've been on delegations to the Council. These are all local to me. I've put a lot of time and effort into local campaigns I've been involved in (and before any jumps up and says 'I knew it' I can assure you that I am not a member of any political party, although through the school parent council I have worked with politicians from 5 different political parties, trying to get their support on various issues). Sadly, the most these have been able to achieve is a slight lessening of the impact of whatever is proposed. Obviously, people still have to get involved in issues that matter to them, but I don't believe having politicians nearby necessarily makes effecting change any easier. I would also say that whilst I can get to Holyrood quickly, someone from the Islands doesn't have that option. Even my parents, who live about an hour's drive away, would struggle to get to Holyrood by public transport quicker than I could get to London by train. To be fair, they are are rural and the public transport is abysmal.

I agree with those who say they feel more solidarity with those in other areas of the UK. I have said before that I feel both Scottish and British (actually up until this year I'd not given a lot of thought to national identity). I don't feel that Scotland should go their own way because they don't like the government we have - we should be working with the rest of the UK. We should be pushing for a UK wide constitutional conversation, ideally (for me, I know I don't speak for everyone) with some form of regional devolution in England. We should be sharing resources across the UK, but improving the allocation of those resources to the areas that need them, and ensuring local voices are heard. We should be looking at different electoral systems - AV was rejected but there are other (and I believe vastly preferable) PR systems we should be looking at.

Sorry - this has turned into an essay and I have to post and run. And I know I'm feeling more and more emotional about this as the date approaches but I suppose I just want to say - let's not tear up what we have, let's work to make it better. I think the whole UK has realised the depth of feeling there is. The genie is out of the bottle and the issues that have been raised cannot be ignored. If they were ignored then I would be up there on the barricades with anyone from the Yes side who was willing to have me. But I genuinely think we can vote No and then work across the UK for a better system.

And did anyone click on my link from yesterday about the Bedroom Tax? There's a Lib Dem private member's bill being voted on tomorrow that would go a long way to mitigate the effects. It isn't a removal but that won't happen under the current government. I've emailed my MP and he is voting in support of it - please, whatever side of the referendum debate you're on, if this is an important issue to you email your MP and ask him to vote in favour of the bill.

JimMurphysHump · 04/09/2014 10:53

Sorry choco, I wasn't saying at all that all Yes voters are voting out of a desire to improve lives for others. I was just trying to explain that smugness that some have.

weatherall · 04/09/2014 10:53

WM has dismantled the welfare state and the NHS in England.

The social fund was scrapped and has left in it's place wonga and food banks.

The building of social housing has stagnated.

Disability living allowance has been abolished.

Incapacity benefit was abolished.

ATOS vilified the sick and disabled.

Tax credits have been cut.

There is no safety net and the unemployed often have to rely on relatives to survive.

This is not a track record to be proud of.

WildThong · 04/09/2014 10:54

Catching up...
Well done weatherall and deeedeee for hounding LadyC off the thread

That's how you roll?

weatherall · 04/09/2014 10:55

Who says we won't be working with rUK after independence?

It isn't AS and NS because they are always going on about working with rUK.

It's BT who say we won't work together.

trixymalixy · 04/09/2014 10:55

deee the stock markets are jittery

chocoluvva · 04/09/2014 10:56

This is not a recent track record to be proud of.

Vote no for change throughout the UK. The tories will be out soon!

weatherall · 04/09/2014 10:58

I don't agree that the remit of the Scottish parliament covers 'a significant part of our daily lives'.

We need our own tax and benefits system to suit our specific needs.

This can only be delivered by independence.

JimMurphysHump · 04/09/2014 11:00

The tories won't be out soon. That can no more be promised than Scotland having a left of centre government in perpetuity.

weatherall · 04/09/2014 11:14

But choco labour have said they will follow the same Tory policies.

Labour are only interested in the swing seats in middle England, they take Scottish votes for granted so don't bother with policies to suit Scotland. Scottish labour MPs voted for welfare cuts.

A labour vote in May won't change anything.

chocoluvva · 04/09/2014 11:26

A vote for independence will definitely not help those people in rUK who are deprived. Staying within the UK might.

What, other than more immigration are the specifically Scottish needs - don't say better promotion of Scottish whisky either because I'm sure plenty of the Scottish whisky industry has declared itself in favour of voting no - needs that are not also the need of those people in rUK who are deprived?

I don't see how labour can take Scottish votes for granted in the current political climate.

JimMurphysHump · 04/09/2014 11:29

How will Scotland staying in the UK help those in poverty in other parts of the UK?

chocoluvva · 04/09/2014 11:35

Perhaps labour is more realistic about what any government can reasonably hope to fund than SNP. You don't like conservative policies, you don't like labour policies, I've no idea your views about lib-dems or green policies - the SNP purports to be green sometimes, probably splitting scottish green votes. Given that in your opinion the labour party will continue with many unfair conservative policies there must be an economic reason.

In the event of a yes vote the details of the white paper will be up for negotiation with all the Scottish parties. I assume, anyway.

And of course rUK.

And EU will impose financial conditions on our membership which will limit the freedom of an independent Scotland to do exactly what the SNP wants to do with its revenue anyway.

deeedeee · 04/09/2014 11:36

lady c wouldn't be hounded wildthong, as much as we disagree I do have a respect for her strength . She gives as good as she gets. She just needs to make sure the dust sheets are down. she'll be back.

chocoluvva · 04/09/2014 11:37

Scotland still in the UK will continue to have representation. It will obviously have no representation in Westminster if we become independent. We can't leave uk and still hope to influence it's policies.

chocoluvva · 04/09/2014 11:37

its even - not it's.

Sallyingforth · 04/09/2014 11:37

The next UK government will be a Labour one. They will not be following all the Tory policies, but they will be solvent, unlike iScotland. The best anyone in Scotland can do is vote No.

chocoluvva · 04/09/2014 11:41

It goes without saying that if you leave the UK you are giving up on improving things for the deprived population of rUK.

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