Indyref Part 4

[SantanaLopez]

Evening all :)

Don't be surprised or blame people when they act in their own rational self interest deeedeee. (Adam Smith = wise observer of human societies.)

Good morning.

FWIW I am heartened by the sight of Danny Alexander, Jim Murphy and Annabel Goldie finally being seen and heard making the point that a desire for a fairer and more equal society should surely include the people of the whole of the UK, not just Scotland.

Jim Murphy claimed that a labour government would scrap the bedroom tax, so please yes voters will you stop going on about it as one reason to vote for independence.

If the claims about the SNP white paper from commentators - the majority of whom say it is mostly not viable are correct, the Scottish government will be unable to fund the public spending required to end child poverty.

Lady c, weatherall hadn't called you any names, don't dumb down the debate. Shouldn't you be checking your decorator is doing enough coats of gloss.

I did not vote SNP, I don't plan to. I'm not interested on defending or discussing holyrood's successes and failure. It's a red herring. The question isn't do you agree with everything the Scittish Government does. The question is should Scotland be independant.

The cut off for means tested fsm is ridiculously low. To say a lone parent working 16 hours on nmw can easily afford £30 pwk for 3 DCs school dinners is a fairy tale.

If the union was ever going to create a fairer society it would have by now.

How many more generations of Scottish children have to be made to suffer to flog this dead horse?

Britain doesn't rule an empire anymore. The world has moved on. Scotland should too.

deeedeee, sorry not to be able to join your optimistic FS gang, but we won't have any choice about moving if DH wants to keep his job. So I'd love to stop worrying and talking about it, but it's just the way it's likely to go with a Yes vote.

On how the Yes camp view the Nos, I think it's difficult for some to shake off the feeling that some No voters are pretty selfish. Folk are saying that they're voting No because they're happy with the status quo. Sometimes People in comfortable houses with privately educated children. It's difficult not to imagine that they're voting in their own interests. And it doesn't help when BT's latest adverts are all about protecting 'my' family.

People are queuing at food banks. Whether or not MY family will be worse off, I think as a whole, people in Scotland will benefit from a Yes vote.

Adam Smith is only one way of looking at it. Many economists and sociologists have proven that humans are not wealth maximing robots, homo oeconomicus is a fiction; Bruno Fey, Deci, Mark Lepper and David Greene, and Mihaly Csikszentmihaly prove that.

But don't you think your first duty of care should be to your own family. If my own family are safe, clothed, warm, have enough to eat and a roof over their heads, then I am able to start caring about other people in a practical way.

And my last post is exactly why No voters think Yes voters sound smug.

weatherall "the union" set up a welfare state and the NHS. Many trade unions are national, I mean UK wide. Women's rights have (kind of) improved through UK legislation.

I am confused about the fsm entitlement. Could you explain it? Is it not devolved?

Jimmurphys hump- that has been my experience of no campaigners- they are wealthier than average, they have stable lives, secure professional jobs or are retired with big pensions, lots of equity in their homes etc. I can see why they don't want to rick their boat.

But to say what suits them is in the best interests of the majority of Scots- that I have an objection to.

Jim I see what you mean but there is another other way of looking at it - those better off who want to leave or feel forced to leave can; economy shudders for a while during changeover; the people at the bottom feel the pain the most (as always). Everything settles down and we are now stable and hopefully all very happy (or fed up with a new elite of Edinburgh politicians and bureaucrats.)

I don't think A Smith was a robot!

Fortunately my children are okay so I can try to campaign for not just Scottish children getting a better deal, but all children in UK. Why would I only want Scottish children to benefit from that?

Digs at ladycordelias supposed personal wealth are uncalled for

The union has dismantled the welfare state and NHS. WM will never have a government like the post war ones which delivered these.

Education is devolved. But the budget is limited through the Barnett formula to stay in line with spending in rUK so without making cuts elsewhere the Scottish government couldn't implement it until WM said so. Local councils could have delivered it themselves but they too did not want to take it from other budgets.

However there is a postcode lottery in the cost of school dinners as local authorities subsidise them to varying extents.

Plenty of yes campaigners are wealthy, with stable lives too. Eg, AS and NS.

My household income is below average and I'm voting no.

Feelingmellow- read her posts from yesterday to understand the context.

Don't be surprised or blame people when they act in their own rational self interest deeedeee. (Adam Smith = wise observer of human societies.)
On how the Yes camp view the Nos, I think it's difficult for some to shake off the feeling that some No voters are pretty selfish. Folk are saying that they're voting No because they're happy with the status quo. Sometimes People in comfortable houses with privately educated children. It's difficult not to imagine that they're voting in their own interests. And it doesn't help when BT's latest adverts are all about protecting 'my' family.
But I'm beginning to wonder whether voting Yes is selfish in that no debate I have seen talks about how Independence will affect the poor in the North, in Cornwall, in Wales etc etc. Is not the point of a Union about being in a symbiotic relationship?
I admire the principles of Socialism but centralisation with redistribution coupled with prejudice against those who earn above the national average will surely only lead to demotivation. There exists in some quarters such bitterness against those who do well - but isn't that the aim of the left-wing: opportunity that leads to success? It's a no win for someone who has, for example, come from a poor family, succeeded in their area and are now being slammed for being 'super rich'. A couple that are heavy smokers will spend more on cigarettes than a private school education might cost - so to me it's not really about the money.
I also have my doubts after following the Donald Trump story and how Scots were made homeless to appease a capitalist. Not one of Scotland's proudest socialist moments.

The union has dismantled the welfare state and NHS - that's an outrageous thing to say.

Talking about NHS - have you heard about the privatisation of dietary advice now outsourced to Weight Watchers by AS?

I know that Education is devolved - I have DC who are 'experiencing' the CforE.

Yes the two top politicians in Scotland are typical yes voters

It was said that even the process of setting up and talking about the referendum would cause enough uncertainty to start markets wobbling. Funny that we're two weeks before the vote and RBS stick price is rising and Vurgin
bank is planning on moving to Edinburgh still.

The mass uncertainty and fear you all feel is sad for you all personally, but it isn't universal across the country. The yes vote is growing. Confidence and positivity are abounding. These things can effect economies. It's not cloud cuckoo land to suggest that!

If you're specific job moves south, then why can't you loo for a new one in an idependant Scotland? That's what we plan to do? Jeez, we've all has had contracts end, redundancies and funding priorities changing a plenty in the last 15 years. There's no stability anyway. Wake up!

And with that I will take my fat fingered I phone typoed optimism and follow lady Cordelia into the real world.