To hope that I can ask about FF without being shot down in flames?

[Darksideofthemoon88]

I'm interested in WHY people choose to FF if not for medical reasons (ie they can't because of medication they have to take, or because their baby was very premature and is unable to suckle) - I've seen a lot of threads where people assert that FF was best for them/their family/their baby or that they chose to FF without trying BF, and I'm curious as to why. Genuinely curious I'm not interested in fighting with anyone about what's best or right; I'd just like to read about why people FF because I honestly don't know. In the interests of full disclosure though (I know how MNs feel about this! ), I am a breastfeeding mother.

I had to part formula feed and part express as DS was 'a slow feeder' (according to the midwives in hospital) and, as he had lost a lot of birth weight and had a heart murmur they wanted to measure how much he took at each feed - not possible with BF.

Then it turned out that he had a more serious heart condition and was operated on at two weeks old - we had been discharged from the birth hospital and it was only a vigilant GP and a gut feeling that got him rushed to hospital by ambulance, white as a sheet and gasping to breathe.

My milk dried up to almost nothing as we were waiting three days for him to stabilise before his procedure. I think it was a combination of not being able to BF because of the measuring feeds at the start which didn't stimulate milk production plus the trauma of the rush across the city in an ambulance when the birth hospital had just said the murmur could be managed through outpatients and the fact that, having had a c-section which had become infected, I was in a fair bit of discomfort for those couple of days.

The worst thing said to me was by a heavily pregnant, with first child (like mind was), midwife at the heart op hospital. I had been sent over to the maternity area by the children's heart ward to get the c-section scar checked as they were concerned I was in pain and looking washed out with it. She did the check, gave me antibiotics after checking if I was still BF. I explained I was FF completely by then and she said"well it doesn't take much to express. You should carry on trying as it is best for baby and he needs all the help he can get now. I am planning to go nowhere near a bottle when this one is born". I was in floods. She did apologise but I am afraid I walked out saying something along the lines of "If you go through what we went through you may find you eat those words" - nasty of me I know but to this day I don't regret saying it!

The nicest thing said was by the woman who ran the breastfeeding classes at the birth hospital. I had been to three classes with her and bumped into her a local community thing where she had a tent. She came to coo over DS and asked how it was going. I pointed to the bottle and sort of gave her a little shrug and, without knowing what had happened to DS, she put her arm around my shoulder and said "You're feeding your baby. You are doing your best. It may not be what you wanted but it is not second best. It is your best and don't let anyone tell you differently". I could have kissed her and,after that, I settled into a very happy and very bonding FF routine. DS, apart from his heart, is healthy. I have no idea what the future will bring re health for me or him but I did my best and that is good enough.

"Anyone who joined the conversation and didn't agree that bf was pointless, or that women are bullied into it by militant activists for their own vested interests has been accused, aggressively at times, of suggesting that women who ff are evil and bad."

This is EXACTLY what happens every single time a thread like this springs up.

Trying to stop people engaging in character assassination of breastfeeding advocates and creating straw man arguments against breastfeeding advocacy, is ignoring the result that the response of people like Dreaming and Maiow is actually pathological - there is fuck all logic in it, it arises from a very bad and unhappy place inside themselves.

I really wish someone would do some psychological research into the narratives that mothers create around this issue.

"but I did my best and that is good enough"

And did the people caring for you and ds do THEIR best to protect breastfeeding for you and your son?

I really wish someone would do some psychological research into the narratives that mothers create around this issue.

Did you honestly manage to type that with a straight face?

I tried really hard to bf DS1, found it hideously painful and thoroughly stressful - not helped by a very unpleasant and bullying midwife who kept saying that DS1 had latched on fine, it couldn't be that painful (it was agony), it must be me and I had to keep trying. By day 3, I couldn't even express as it was full of blood. The weekend midwife said "why are you putting yourself through this, there is an alternative", and I was so relieved that someone had said that formula was OK. It turned out that ff worked brilliantly for us, as DH could help and he loved feeding DS1.

For DS2, I bf for the first couple of days and then switched to ff. The midwives were great, no pressure at all this time, just support for what I wanted to do. Again, it worked perfectly for us, DS1 enjoyed feeding his little brother and MIL took over night feeds for the first week which meant that I recovered really quickly.

I think that whilst there may be some benefits to bf over ff, those benefits are going to be marginal (how can the studies accurately account for genetic, environmental and sociological factors for instance?), formula is a perfectly adequate substitute, and ffing allowed to me to be a happy and effective mum and so was always going to be better for my babies, myself and my family.

I do think that every new mum should be encouraged to give bfing a realistic go, but there should be help and support for those that it doesn't work out for - mums that try bfing and can't do it often do see themselves as failures and that's the thing that needs to be changed.

"when weighed against the mental health and physical wellbeing of the mother involved those risks and benefits are very insignificant in comparison. "

well said Fairy."

No - not well said. That comment rests on the assumption that all or most mothers who continue to breastfeed when they would prefer to stop will develop postnatal depression or become deeply unhappy, and that the health protection afforded by breastfeeding is so insignificant that it'll never have any concrete impact on a baby's well-being.

Yes Catgirl - some of you are engaging in weird fantasies, as evidenced by the bollocks about women being 'forced' into breastfeeding, formula being 'evil', and women who don't breastfeed being 'bad'.

Out of interest mini

What would the people around me "protecting" breastfeeding for me if I was struggling look like? What would that involve if say, I was in Esmum07s situation?

minifingers I am sorry but your attitude and judgements are very damaging. It is the attitude that you are putting across that makes a lot of women feel bad.

Pathological! Haha. Er, I really don't think I'm the one being pathological here, but thanks for the laugh.

I'm actually an extremely happy person, thanks, life is pretty good. That's probably why I don't go around bothering people about their personal choices and making nasty judgments about them.

"That comment rests on the assumption that all or most mothers who continue to breastfeed when they would prefer to stop will develop postnatal depression or become deeply unhappy, and that the health protection afforded by breastfeeding is so insignificant that it'll never have any concrete impact on a baby's well-being."

So you are saying women should continue to breastfeed even when they don't want to?

That's a very anti feminist thing to say. The UAE would love you. Luckily we are in the UK and here we do not care for those who choose to try to dictate what women should do with their own bodies. The benefits of breastfeeding do not outweigh a women's right to choose how she feeds her baby.

Interestingly, just googled infant feeding in history and as far back as 2000bc women were using "artificial" feeding methods and alternatives to breast milk.

Also wet-nursing was a big industry throughout history. Until the advent of the modern baby bottle.

Just saying.

"Out of interest mini

"What would the people around me "protecting" breastfeeding for me if I was struggling look like? What would that involve if say, I was in Esmum07s situation?"

Medical staff should do the same for the breastfeeding mothers of all seriously sick babies - understand that they and their poorly baby are a unit and need to be cared for as such, to support the mum with expressing and lactation consultant input if problems with supply present themselves (intense stress impacts on supply, but most supply problems are transient if the right treatment and support are given).

Esmum07s doesn't go into detail about her care around this time, it might have been exemplary, but sometimes it's not, and breastfeeding is unnecessarily damaged and compromised.

I know two mothers who have had very sick babies go to special care who have been left on a postnatal ward (and in one case an antenatal ward because of a lack of space on postnatal) for 24/48 hours after birth with no support to express and no input from a lactation consultant or specialist midwife. One friend was told that her poorly baby (who had Downs) would never breastfeed because of poor muscle tone, and given formula in hospital. It was only because she was stubborn and resourceful that she managed to contact specialist support when she got home and go on to successfully breastfeed her baby.

It saddens me reading the repeated INSISTENCE on this thread that breastfeeding is completely pointless and has no value, except to the mother if it's something she feels like doing. I feel like people really want to believe that it's meaningless for babies. So, so hard to challenge poor and inadequate care if the entrenched attitude among women is: IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW A BABY IS FED.

If that's the case, then why the hell should hospitals bother?

Wow.

What a depressing statement.

And it comes at the same time as another AIBU thread asking why some bf mums act like martyrs. Is it any surprise when some particularly militant bf advocates come out with damaging, ff-shaming statements like that? It encourages martyrdom, and breeds an us vs. them culture. 'We're doing this because it's good for our children. You've made the selfish choice'.

If it's selfish for me to want to function like a human without crippling headaches and tachycardia, and to continue with university to better myself for DD's sake - as both of those reasons prevented me from persevering with breastfeeding - then so be it

That comment rests on the assumption that all or most mothers who continue to breastfeed when they would prefer to stop will develop postnatal depression or become deeply unhappy, and that the health protection afforded by breastfeeding is so insignificant that it'll never have any concrete impact on a baby's well-being.

Mini - when will you get that it isn't for you to weigh up those risks for women? They are generally capable, informed women.

If you do want to make that judgement the start your own thread titled "Come and tell me why you want to stop BF and I'll let you know if that is acceptable"

But bfing does have limited value for hoards and hoards of babies,certainly mine.

You can't change that.

"There are loads of things we do as parents which are boring/challenging/don't come naturally - but we accept that we have to do them because it's good for our children."

We do, do we? Says who? You, minifingers?

You do make a lot of assumptions, don't you?

I'll let you into a secret. Mothers and toddlers groups are said to be good for children. I found them boring so I didn't do them. Swimming is good for children. It doesn't come naturally to me so I didn't do it. Baby singalong classes are said to be good for children. I found them homicide-inducing so I didn't do them.

Do you want me to carry on to prove the point I'm making or will that list suffice?

You accept what you like. You be a martyr make sacrifices so you can feel good about yourself as much as you like. You feed how you like.

But fgs take your sanctimonious, patronising beak out of how others do it because if you're not judging you're assuming and it's becoming really irritating.

Mini it's people like you who create toxic psychological narratives.

I'm still hurting from comments you made to me on here when I tried to make sensible comments about my own experiences (and failure) with bf a year or so ago.

I agree with you on a pragmatic level on many things you say, but until you've walked a mile in many of our shoes, you have really got to work on your attitude. Your comments on this thread don't help or encourage anyone. They're just cruel and damaging.

I had a difficult pregnancy, and dd was very poorly at first thanks hospital for your germs.

I hadn't eaten properly in weeks, I had suffered from anaemia and the worst pain of my life. I was in and out if hospital for best part of a year either with me and pregnancy issues or with dd.

For me it easy just about what I found easier or what I felt would be best for my already small baby who had problems with a weak suck and couldn't afford to waste time building up my supply etc.

But for my whole family. Because bf would have meant even more time taken away from spending with dd1 who had waited long enough for me to be able to function.

There was no way being glued to a sofa bf again unable to go out or take dd anywhere was remotely an option for me.

Exactly there are hoards of things that are good for children I do such as still reading to them daily even though the eldest is 11 and hoards that I don't such as getting 10 a day and a daily brisk walk into them.

I tried but ten days in got chronic mastitis. The antibiotics gave me thrush of the boob which was very painful, and subsequently DS got thrush in his mouth which we couldn't shift. As I didnt want him to pass it back to me time and time again I expressed but couldn't keep up as he fed a bottle every two hours. So, I mix fed and it gradually got less and less expressed milk.
More controversially, despite beating myself up about stopping (which seems so trivial now) I also found leaking breasts, breasts filling up, greasy with cream sore nipples (which then went in DS's mouth) quite revolting.

Mini I hope that in real life you are more empathetic than you appear on threads like this.

I don't know how you believe that your attitude will persuade people to your cause. It doesn't. It puts people's back up.

Aww Giles stories like that make me so fucking angry about sanctimonious bfers.

Actually that is a good point someone up thread said with regards to measuring how much milk a newborn is getting. My Dd2 was very slightly prem, and lost weight. It got to the point where the midwives wanted her fed every hour and a half night and day to get her to purchase on a bit of weight. No way could I express and feed her and take care of three other children!

I BF dd for the first 8 weeks and then switched to formula.

Honestly, BF made me feel a little miserable. Nobody else could feed her, it was all on me, morning, noon and night. I constantly panicked about where to feed her while we were out (I'm just not the sort who is comfortable whapping out a bap in public) so I effectively spent 8 weeks cooped up inside my house. I didn't like the sensation of dd sucking on me, even now I kinda cringe thinking back on it. Oh, and I really, really hated the pain when my boobs went rock hard and started to leak. Ouchies.

If I ever had another, I'd probably try to BF for the first few weeks just so that LO got all the super good stuff. But then I think I'd probably switch to formula.

It's like another poster said, dd's 7 now and whether she was BF or FF just isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.