To hope that I can ask about FF without being shot down in flames?

[Darksideofthemoon88]

I'm interested in WHY people choose to FF if not for medical reasons (ie they can't because of medication they have to take, or because their baby was very premature and is unable to suckle) - I've seen a lot of threads where people assert that FF was best for them/their family/their baby or that they chose to FF without trying BF, and I'm curious as to why. Genuinely curious I'm not interested in fighting with anyone about what's best or right; I'd just like to read about why people FF because I honestly don't know. In the interests of full disclosure though (I know how MNs feel about this! ), I am a breastfeeding mother.

What Miaow said.

It's always the same, why people chose to FF never seems to matter, it's that they didn't that seems to be the important thing for some people.

But I guess if they read the thread and saw that for some people (like me) it wasn't a choice then it somewhat destroys the argument. Except that I obviously should have just tried harder...

I'm well aware of the benefits of breastfeeding, and it was always something I wanted to do, but given that with ds1 I didn't make any milk (yes, really), what was I supposed to do? Let him starve?

If breastfeeding reduces the incidence of SIDS, breast cancer and hospitalisation of babies then how can you say the benefits are 'trivial' when weighed against the impact of continuing breastfeeding on the mother when she would rather stop?

You can't assume that all or even most women who continue breastfeeding despite finding it a pain in the arse/inconvenient/whatever, will develop PND or any sort of severe emotional problem which will impact on their ability to mother their baby well - if this was the case then you'd have outrageously high rates of PND in all countries where the vast majority of mothers breastfeed because formula is inaccessible (as in many developing countries) or because it is expected of them (as in Norway). I assume that in places like this a similar number of women 'want their bodies back' just as women do here?

I'm not denying by the way that women can become postnatally depressed from continuing to struggle with breastfeeding, only that we shouldn't assume that this will be the the inevitable result of a mother continuing to breastfeed when she finds it onorous.

There are loads of things we do as parents which are boring/challenging/don't come naturally - but we accept that we have to do them because it's good for our children.

According to MIND, 1 in 6 women suffer from PND.

I'd say that's outrageously high.

I wonder if the amount of pressure women seem to put themselves (and each other) under in terms of doing everything right is a contributing factor?

In what way is my last post bizarre, minifingers? Tiktok reckoned she can tell a breast fed baby from a formula fed baby, I was asking her to prove it.

The fact of the matter is that you, tiktok, silver, amanda et al have tromped all over a civil conversation about FF by questioning people's choices, judging them, making unfounded insinuations and basically stirring up trouble. Like that kid in the playground who sees a group playing nicely and decides to go disrupt the game for no reason other than they can. The thread is/was about FF experiences and why people who FF chose to do so. If you are not an FFer, don't agree with FFing, and think FFing leads to an overall poorer outcome for babies than BFing then there are plenty of threads and forums out there for you, why come and piss all over this one?

minifingers your last post does come across as very judgemental and dismissive of ffing mother's. I wanted to bf. I really did, but the reality wasn't worth it. So yes, I switched, and I ff all my children. That was not me putting my needs above my children's health. That was me making a decision that was better in the long run for all of us.

Mind you, if I was struggling to breastfeed and someone told me

"There are loads of things we do as parents which are boring/challenging/don't come naturally - but we accept that we have to do them because it's good for our children."

I'd be fucking depressed.

I'm depressed just reading it.

I think that last post just showed your true colours, mini.

Can't even be bothered to reply to it in detail actually, it's so ignorant in so many ways.

I'm just grateful that in the many hundreds of replies on this thread the very vast majority of people are sympathetic and reasonable and non judgemental towards formula feeding, even those who have breastfed.

I think that speaks volumes if anyone reading this is considering formula feeding.

Minifingers - I think you have to accept that women are able to review the evidence for the benefits of BF and their own personal circumstances and conclude that the risks of FF are trivial. It might be because their interpretation of the available evidence is that it is so confounded or weak that the benefits may be vanishingly small or it may be that their assessment of the risks from their personal circumstances are significantly greater and outweigh the risks they perceive of FF.

It really isn't up to you to draw that conclusion for them.

"There are loads of things we do as parents which are boring/challenging/don't come naturally - but we accept that we have to do them because it's good for our children."

What a joyless world you must live in.

But actually you would have had to convince my 2 day old baby that she needed to bf. That's probably a bit harder isn't it. Maybe she should have tried harder...

Eeek! No of course you cannot tell who was bf and ff! It's impossible! Do ppl really really think I believe that? How ridiculous!

My point was the phrasing of it is a trope! You get someone saying 'you can't tell blah blah blah' as if that demonstrated anything.

I am gonna have to explain for the hard of thinking, here :)

Sometimes, people who want to put forward a view that it really doesn't matter how babies are fed will present what I suppose they think is a killer argument by saying 'ha ha! You cannot tell when they are five how they were fed. Wot a lot o' fuss is made about it all.'

Guess what? You cannot tell a lot of things by looking at kids of five but it is not an argument for the lack of significance.

And while I am on the topic, it does not matter if baby A was bf and is obese, diabetic, horrendously infected and whatever else, and baby B was ff and a perfect specimen of health. Because stats do not predict individual outcomes which will, of course, vary.

Can we please use adult, informed arguments sometimes?

I thank you.

bear that simply is not true.
I haven't tromped over anything. Its like a carpet of fucking eggshells in here. Anyone who joined the conversation and didn't agree that bf was pointless, or that women are bullied into it by militant activists for their own vested interests has been accused, aggressively at times, of suggesting that women who ff are evil and bad. That just is not true. People have not been saying that. It is unfair and unpleasant to say so.
Any attempt to defend oneself has been met with twisting of words and further accusations in an unpleasant manner.
This is a public forum. Ppl have a right to post their views and experiences and add some information. That is all that has happened.
If you want a private discussion about how ff is great and bf ing mothers are all smug and unfeeling then don't use a public forum.

Bear frills is haven't a scooby how your kids were fed. How would I?

FFS.

Is = I

Bear, please take back your accusations towards me.

I have never, on this thread or indeed in my life, questioned anyone's feeding, their choices insinuated anything related to this or judged anyone.

I have not been disruptive.

You, otoh, think I am some sort of crazy woman who can tell how babies have been fed.

My eyes are rolling outa my head!

Amanda you're being quite disingenuous.

No im not. What makes you think that is a fair statement?

Tiktok let it go. Go and support someone who's struggling to bf and really wants to and feels very alone because you're really good at that and it's a far more valuable use of your time.

Miaow, you accuse me of saying women who use formula are bad and our society is evil? Eh? Why would I say that when I don't think it?

I was open about not having read the entire thread (at 500 posts when I came to it) and restricted myself when I joined to some observations of a couple of main themes which I recognised from many, many similar threads.

My post and subsequent posts have mainly focused on the way the discussion has gone, including a correction of invented statistics.

It's actually quite hurtful to be told I have said women who use formula are bad. It's unjust. I work hard for all women to have a better experience when feeding their babies. If they use formula I don't judge in any way. Usually the women I meet and support who are using formula want to do this while maintaining some bf. i try to help them do this. How would I be of any use if I thought they were 'bad'?

I don't usually feel personally hurt by accusations on Mumsnet. But I admit it. The unjustness of your post has got to me.

Here is an adult and informed argument: If you're going to get breast cancer, you're going to get breast cancer. If your child is going to grow up a fat heifer then bf-ing ain't going to slim that chubster down. It's all in the genes, innit.

Do you really think repeatedly referring to people on this thread as naive, ignorant, hard of thinking, not grownup, etc, is not being judgmental? Okay.

I'm not being funny, I really don't think you understand how extremely condescending your posts have been here.

Just because we disagree with you does not mean we're stupid. You seem to think science is unequivocally on your side and it's like we're all flat earthers or denying the law of gravity or something, but that's not the case.

Dreaming. I have used hard of thinking justifiably, and also 'not grown up'.

I don't claim never to judge people's thinking skills and their levels of maturity.

Of course I judge these things.

But I don't judge any mother in relation to her infant feeding decisions.

:)

I hope you can understand the difference. It is not difficult.

Excuse me but that's Dr. Bohemian to you.

I understand every word you say, enough to understand who's really hard of thinking here.

The ability to google and repeat propaganda talking points is really not as impressive as you think it is. Honestly, you're embarrassing yourself here.

Thanks, doc! Good to have you correct me! Which propaganda talking points am I repeating? Cos I don't know where I have done this! Silly moi. I am a teensy bit unsure of what a propaganda talking point ackcherly is, but that's prob me being silly again.

I won't ask you to guess what quals I have cos I am too modest, but let's just say I bet you'd be dead impressed, and you'd wonder how on earth a silly billy like me managed it all!

I might take your advice now, littlebear. This sort of merry banter is off topic for me!

"when weighed against the mental health and physical wellbeing of the mother involved those risks and benefits are very insignificant in comparison. "

well said Fairy.