To hope that I can ask about FF without being shot down in flames?

[Darksideofthemoon88]

I'm interested in WHY people choose to FF if not for medical reasons (ie they can't because of medication they have to take, or because their baby was very premature and is unable to suckle) - I've seen a lot of threads where people assert that FF was best for them/their family/their baby or that they chose to FF without trying BF, and I'm curious as to why. Genuinely curious I'm not interested in fighting with anyone about what's best or right; I'd just like to read about why people FF because I honestly don't know. In the interests of full disclosure though (I know how MNs feel about this! ), I am a breastfeeding mother.

Excellent post, Bohemian.

Tiktok, I don't think my stats were wildly off.. were they? I still maintain that the majority of women who begin breastfeeding have quit by 6 weeks. And that is because it is often massively painful, tedious, time-consuming and life-limiting. Some of us honestly - honestly - preferred not to continue despite having an informed mind and breast feeding quangos queueing up on our doorsteps to fondle our norks. Some of us DO NOT BELIEVE THE HYPE. Some of it, perhaps, but most of it...s'all bullshit.

Dreaming, if ppl point to cultural and social diffs, they are pointing out that women individually are less autonomous in their infant feeding choices. It's not a question of not trying hard enough. Cultural and social factors are huge.

Pistol your stats were way out. You said eighty per cent of women who start bf had stopped by six weeks. I showed the real figure is a third - not even the majority.

I don't know how to explain it better.

tiktok -- your very first post on this thread:

It's notable that posts which state the uncontroversially obvious - that how you feed your baby has an impact on you and your baby, and that there are different outcomes for bf and ff babies - are described as coming over as judgmental and militant. The impact is minimised by some of these posters, with the usual non-scientific and puzzlingly naive observation that you can't tell by looking at a bunch of five-year-olds/a bunch of adults which were bf/ff

How is that not judging our posts? It's very clearly saying we are wrong to interpret certain posts as judgmental/militant and that some of our other points are non-scientific and naive.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion but I do think it's rude to make such judgments without reading the full thread and seeing the context in which such posts were made. And please stop saying you've just been correcting bad info, your judgment has been there from the start.

As for us having a fundamental misunderstanding of internet forums -- please. Could you be more condescending?

Internet forums are not some separate sphere of social interaction -- they are still social discussion, in which generally it's considered bad form to inject your policy agenda into informal discussions of what you know is a controversial subject.

Ok I will have another go at explaining.

Take 100 women.

81 of them start bf.

19 of them ff from the start.

At six weeks, according to uk infant feeding survey, 55 women from that original 100 have stopped completely.

This means 26 women have stopped bf. 81 minus 55 gives you 26 .

So out of our original 81 who started, 26 have stopped.

Not the majority. About a third.

I am not saying that bf is easy or dependent on how hard a woman tries. It is clear there is a drop off. Some of the 55 women are using formula alongside bf. I am a bfc. I know many women have a miserable experience.

I am saying that for whatever reason, your stat of 80 per cent of bf women stopping before six weeks is incorrect, and if we are going to talk stats at all, please let them be as accurate as possible and mathematically at least coherent.

The irony about all of it is that those mums who don't bf who might be persuaded to try (and not all of them would be, myself as one example) would probably be more inclined to give it a go if pro breastfeeders just stopped with all the statistics and evangelising. There is nothing more off putting (in any context) than having someone go on and on about the benefits of something. It's like listening to shopping channel tv on loop.

I stand by my first post. Nothing in it is incorrect. Yes, I judge or rather assess posts but I don't judge women who use formula. I recognised a number if tropes about not knowing who was formula fed and who was breastfed. I judge that as being bollox!

I can judge breastmilk and formula and I can judge the health outcomes of one or the other. I don't judge the users.

Sorry if I sound condescending about this. Thought I was discussing with grown ups here.

Statistics are not evangelising.

@ PistolWhipped. Just what I needed following a difficult session at the gym.

tiktok are you saying you can walk into a room and figure out who is breastfed and who had formula?

so the calm and reasonable discussion the OP was hoping for didn't happen? What a surprise.

I wish these threads would all stay in the feeding section so all the pie-chart, BF, statistic tourettes loons could all stay in the same place.

It is not a trope that you can't tell from sight who was BF or FF -- that is a fact.

Statistics are not lived experience -- I mean, inherently they are not. One is quantitative and derived from external measurement, the other is qualitative and dependent on individual perceptions.

You may think the whole 'love the sinner, hate the sin' line you're taking on formula is appropriate to bring onto a thread about FF experiences but really, it's not. And once a number of people told you so, you would think it would be wise to reconsider instead of doubling down.

I have an idea why don't we set up a new thread called "who can come up with the most relevant statistics for any old shit". Let's see what people can dig out from google.

I pumped whilst DD was in SCBU but she wouldn't latch on so she was FF. Five years previously, I went into cardiac arrest during EMCS having my son, and they broke two of my ribs to get my heart beating again. BF and broken ribs don't make good bedfellows. Are they good enough reasons, OP?

Okay tiktok, money where your mouth is. Guess which of my children is the EBF one, which was BF in the early weeks then FF, and which one was EFF from birth.

Child A: slightly small for age, very good at jigsaws and puzzles, likes role play games and model making. Will try virtually any food, even 'icky' ones. In hospital a lot as a baby, had bronchiolitis, severe kidney infection and lots of ear infections, also has febrile convulsions. Didn't crawl until 8mo.

Child B: crawled and sat unaided at just 5mo, pulled self to stand at just under 6mo when holding hands. Very active and likes to be on the go. Body type best described as chunky. Likes music, swimming and making a noise. Loves to eat and enjoys mealtimes, will also eat virtually anything.

Child C: also very active and always on the go. Likes stories, dinosaurs and fidgeting. Crawled at 6mo. Little bit of a fussy eater but seems to be more of a phase than actual dislikes, has a good appetite and especially likes fruit. Appears to have a pretty good immune system as has (sometimes literally) licked children with chickenpox and never caught it, ditto whatever bug is going around at any given time. Can programme the microwave and would probably take over the running of the household if age/height weren't an issue.

You judge the outcomes- err how and what are they?

Great post from Miaow.

Bear - your post is bizarre.

Surely you know this - that breastfeeding promotes better health and reduced risk of illness but as all children are unique and that there are dozens of other factors affecting health and development that we can never measure the impact of these things in relation to individual health only through large scale studies and analysis?

Miaow - can you point me in the direction of the posts about 'bad' women and 'evil' stuff.

I've gone through the entire thread and the only posts really 'banging on' about morals are by people singing from the same hymn sheet as you.

Fairylea - if we weren't "allowed" to refer to the research and the medical evidence in support of our concerns about the lifestyle choices of mothers we'd still be encouraging women to wean onto solids at 9 weeks and not discouraging them from smoking in pregnancy. We'd also still be encouraging women to put babies to sleep on their fronts.

None of these choices results in obvious ill health or risk to a baby which is identifiable by individuals.

Why are you willing to accept the recommendations of health professionals based on decades of high quality large scale research and meta analysis in relation to some aspects of baby health but are rabidly against it being referred to or acknowledged in support of the argument that breastfeeding can and does reduce the risk of a whole swathe of serious and trivial illnesses?

Is it because the evidence makes you uncomfortable about your choices? Is that why you need to rubbish is and character assassinate anyone who refers to it in support of breastfeeding?

Are you a grown up?

I bf dd1 for first month or so and hated it. Became a new person once I started ff so actively chose to ff dd2 and consequently feel I had a better experience in those early weeks. Id ff every time.

For me it was about getting my body back to myself. I just wanted a routine ASAP. I know bf is better nutritionally but having seen how much better dd1 was on ff (and me) ,the benefits of ff outweighed the benefits of bf. if I had another child I wouldn't even try bf and dont feel a bit ashamed of it.

Mini last time I checked I was a grown up but thank you for such a patronising comment.

For the record I have no doubts there may be some health benefits to breastfeeding. I am not discounting the evidence. What I am saying is that when weighed against the mental health and physical wellbeing of the mother involved those risks and benefits are very insignificant in comparison.

And no actually I have no issue whatsoever with the decisions I've made. I enjoyed formula feeding. I never had any desire whatsoever to breastfeed. But I respect those that have. I just don't want anyone to judge those who formula feed or somehow come to the conclusion they are educationally inferior for doing so.

That grown up enough for you ? I should hope so.