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AIBU?

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Original poster

to want to know why British Jihadi fighters will have their passports revoked?

396 replies

partyskirt · 22/08/2014 12:53

Upon hearing that there are 500+ English muslims fighting in Syria and Iraq as part of the Isis army I immediately looked online for what would happen to them if they tried to return to the UK. I've listened to the news for days and read the papers, government websites etc. and it seems that they will simply be allowed back in. I find this extremely frightening. Why isn't there a clear line on what will happen to them if they try to return? Why isn't the government being clear that they will have passports cancelled and be exiled?

OP posts:
Nancy66 · 22/08/2014 14:30

If a UK born national is stripped of citizenship what then?

It's not like other countries are going to be falling over themselves to have them.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 22/08/2014 14:30

Yes but Edam, where do we send them too?

rpitchfo · 22/08/2014 14:31

i hear Antarctica is recruiting?

Original poster
partyskirt · 22/08/2014 14:31

Good point about PDST Arsenicy - and terrifying.

Nomama - I think even the Americans are scared. But do they have as much home grown Jihad fanaticism as us?

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 22/08/2014 14:32

You can't make people stateless, for one. You just can't, sorry.

They believe they are fighting for a cause. I remember once talking to someone who told me that a freedom fighter is someone fighting for a cause you believe in, in a place you've heard of. A terrorist is someone fighting for a cause you don't believe in, in a place you've heard of. A guerrilla is someone fighting for a cause you don't understand in a place you've never heard of. Sums it up well for me.

I DON'T agree in any way with what is happening but if we; shoot on sight; revoke citizenship; leave them to die; commit rendition; use torture information etc. we have nothing to fight FOR. As Terry Pratchett puts it about going back in time and killing Hitler, Kill the dictator, and another one will appear in his place. Kill him too? Why not kill everyone and invade Poland? You become the thing you hate.

I DON'T agree with these maniacs but can people understand why there is so much anger? Rendition, drones, the Gulf Wars (note the plural), racism, Islamophobia, violence against Muslims, Guantanamo...

ArsenicyOldFace · 22/08/2014 14:32

There is no answer ATM is there NoMama? It is scary.

Original poster
partyskirt · 22/08/2014 14:33

Also does anyone know how ISIS god billions of dollars? (As it says on BBC website)

OP posts:
edamsavestheday · 22/08/2014 14:34

knitted, I know there is a problem there, but we should make it their problem. They can make their own arrangements. We just refuse to let them through. You'd need to give other countries a list of people who won't be allowed back into the UK, e.g. Turkish border control (so they can make a decision about whether to allow these people in their own country, knowing they won't be able to leave for Britain).

If they do turn up, put them on the next plane back to Turkey or leave them standing at the ferry terminal in France or Spain. There are a few advantages of being an island...

Deverethemuzzler · 22/08/2014 14:34

We don't know if the man who beheaded this poor man was from the UK.
We know that the video was made to suggest that he was in order to create maximum impact. We know that people from the UK were involved in some way.

Thing is, these are usually young men and women. Young men especially are vulnerable to radicalistion due to the teenage brain not being fully developed, the need to belong to something, the need for excitement and meaning, the lack of purpose etc.

That is why they are used by those in power to blow themselves up and to blow other people up whilst the older, cleverer ones stay safe and hidden.

This is not just about religion. This is about lack of opportunities, direction and those who can make a difference not stepping up and doing so.

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/08/2014 14:34

Oil money. And, I'm looking at you Saudi

Original poster
partyskirt · 22/08/2014 14:34

Pratchett I can understand the anger - the west should have had nothing to do with these places. Perhaps pay them off as an apology and leave them alone forever? I am not joking.

OP posts:
edamsavestheday · 22/08/2014 14:35

Selling oil, apparently, party. Which raises the question, who is buying oil from Isis and why can't we boycott them or prosecute them if they are UK companies?

BoredPanda · 22/08/2014 14:37

I can understand the anger, I think. There is a growing hatred against people who a re 'other' I think, and Muslims are a target. Goes hand in hand with, I believe, the stats showing a rise in anti semitism, homophobia and so on. If they are being told they don't fit into society and feel like outcasts, rightly or wrongly, then it is very easy to become radicalised. One way to ensure less radicalisation is to ensure that young people who experience Islamophobia, racism and so on don't end up feeling like outcasts in the first place, when they'll be easier to brainwash as they've got the anger already there.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 22/08/2014 14:37

We need rehabilitation as well as punishment but as soon as you start talking about that you get the accusations of being soft on criminals and crap about OAPs and Soldiers getting less money than your average crim.

I really do not want the UK to start to rehabilitate butchers who are beating, and murdering and raping people. I want them to be locked away unable to harm anyone any more.

Or did you mean rehab those with extreme beliefs who have not done anything yet Confused

Thurlow · 22/08/2014 14:37

One of the answers is that murder or manslaughter committed by a British citizen abroad is still triable in Britain as a crime.

Where any murder or manslaughter shall be committed on land out of the United Kingdom, whether within the Queen’s dominions or without, and whether the person killed were a subject of Her Majesty or not, every offence committed by any subject of Her Majesty in respect of any such case, whether the same shall amount to the offence of murder or of manslaughter, . . . may be dealt with, inquired of, tried, determined, and punished . . . in England or Ireland . . . Provided, that nothing herein contained shall prevent any person from being tried in any place out of England or Ireland for any murder or manslaughter committed out of England or Ireland, in the same manner as such person might have been tried before the passing of this Act.
(Offences Against the Person Act 1861)

Hence one of the reasons for the concern that the man who beheaded the journalist was British.

The answer is not to "send these people back". If they want to apply for citizenship of another country they can. If they want to maintain their British citizenship they can - but they will be subject to British laws. If the law relating to murder and manslaughter abroad was extended to include terrorism, then if they came back to the UK they could be arrested and charged.

It requires communication between countries and the sharing of intelligence, which is what the world needs. Iraqi intelligence services can provide UK intelligene services with the proof of terrorist acts committed in Iraq, for instance. And surely that is a better way of dealing with the problem of terrorists than just sending depriving them of British citizenship.

After all, do you really think that all Iraqis want IS terrorists in their country?

Nomama · 22/08/2014 14:39

I think they are realising that they have a few different radicalised populations growing in strength at the moment. Statistically they may not have as much Islamic unrest, but they have always had odd break away sects and these seem to be a little more agitated these days.. The Sovereign Citizens is a newish group - they may have read ALL of Dan Brown and John Twelve Hawks books and taken them as a new gospel!

As for Jihadism... they now believe it is sneaking on via the Mexican border. So I would think they are measuring a growth.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 22/08/2014 14:39

One way to ensure less radicalisation is to ensure that young people who experience Islamophobia, racism and so on don't end up feeling like outcasts in the first place, when they'll be easier to brainwash as they've got the anger already there.

Really? but UK is one of most tolerant nations on earth. Nearly every road in Britain will have Muslims living on it?

BoredPanda · 22/08/2014 14:39

I agree with rehabilitation. Even if they stay in prison for the rest of their life, at least it means it's less likely for someone else to be radicalised while in prison. Prison should keep us as a society safe and rehabilitation of criminals, even the very worst, is one very effective way of doing it. Without changing their views or feelings, they'll be able to continue to radicalise to people who may well leave prison and be able to act on that, imo.

ArsenicyOldFace · 22/08/2014 14:40

We need rehabilitation as well as punishment but as soon as you start talking about that you get the accusations of being soft on criminals and crap about OAPs and Soldiers getting less money than your average crim.

Yes we need both, but I can't see much evidence of either so far.

One man has been given a short prison sentence AFAIK. Are there others? How many have returned? What rehab is in place?

DeVere is right about exploitation and prevention but what do we know about large scale efforts and funding in that regard? Anything?

KnittedJimmyChoos · 22/08/2014 14:41

If they are being told they don't fit into society and feel like outcasts, rightly or wrongly, then it is very easy to become radicalised.

I disagree there, Muslims are part of our fabric in UK, woven tightly in. They are society in UK.

Deverethemuzzler · 22/08/2014 14:41

Not everyone who goes into prison has butchered someone.
However most people who go into prison will be exposed to people who have and/or will try to influence them in a negative way.

They will NOT all be locked up for ever. Even those who rape and kill.
So we let them sit around for a few years and then let them out?

No intervention for fear of being accused of being too soft.
We just let out people who have spent five years or so being influenced and brutalised and who are unemployable.

Super.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 22/08/2014 14:41

I don't want to spend money on rehab for these people.

Thurlow · 22/08/2014 14:42

the west should have had nothing to do with these places. Perhaps pay them off as an apology and leave them alone forever? I am not joking.

I really, really hope that is some sort of double joke

ArsenicyOldFace · 22/08/2014 14:42

I don't want to spend money on rehab for these people.

Don't be ridiculous.

What do you want to do then?

KnittedJimmyChoos · 22/08/2014 14:43

Not everyone who goes into prison has butchered someone.

I am not talking about general prisoner or the general population but specifically the butchers who are out murdering and raping at the moment as part of ISIS.