to want to know why British Jihadi fighters will have their passports revoked?

[partyskirt]

Upon hearing that there are 500+ English muslims fighting in Syria and Iraq as part of the Isis army I immediately looked online for what would happen to them if they tried to return to the UK. I've listened to the news for days and read the papers, government websites etc. and it seems that they will simply be allowed back in. I find this extremely frightening. Why isn't there a clear line on what will happen to them if they try to return? Why isn't the government being clear that they will have passports cancelled and be exiled?

So looking like another set of brown people is the same as having the same background?

Er actually yes ! In case you hadn't realised India / Pakistan and Bangladesh were all one country and hence the backgrounds are all very similar !

Growing up my Indian origin Sikh and Hindu friends only differed from me and the rest of my Pakistani ones in the way we practiced our respective religions. Even then there were some similarities in religious rituals.

Our food, our clothes, our language, our cultures are virtually identical. We slotted very easily into each others families and our mothers would moan to our friends mothers about the same problems (mostly to do with getting us all married off asap)

But outcomes for diaspora communities in the UK have been very different despite being largely viewed by the White British population as homogenously British Asian pre 9/11? That's your argument Mistress?

The Sikh/Muslim comparison is interesting, not least because it is unusual.

Oh and the 1st generation of immigrants, i.e. that of my parents generation were all distinctly and still are moderate in thought and appearance.

The muslim women did not face veil or even wear hijabs, so my mother looked no different from our sikh and hindu neighbours, in their shalwar kameez. Our father's rarely had beards and wore western clothes. It was only the local Imam who had one.

When they came in the 50's and 60's, all groups equally faced the prevalent discrimination at the time such as 'no Pakis' when trying to rent a house and the racism that led to lack of opportunity to be taken on in professional roles.

Yes Aresenic thats's my argument.

Links below from 2008 & 2000, but relevant because they represent the generation who completed their schooling predominately before 9/11:

news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/educational_achievement.stm

According to the Office for National Statistics, around 33% of British Muslims of working age have no qualifications - the highest proportion of any religious group in this country - and Muslims are also the least likely to have degrees or equivalent qualifications
www.theguardian.com/education/2008/apr/01/schools.uk

Why do you think it is? (the marked lower educational attainment)

And devere many Pakistani's such as my parents were born in India and only moved countries after or during the partition and likewise there are many Hindus who went from Pakistan to India in 1945 or thereabouts.

Getting slightly off the topic, but still on this posts theme here's a really lovely advert by Google about Indian and Pakistani friends separated by the partition.

There's a whole series of them, although only the main one linked to above is sub-titled.

Demonstrates aptly the shared background. Very heart warming and a bit of a tear jerker.

Arsenicy: I'll answer over the weekend. Getting seriously late now and I have to be up at 6 for work.

Yes. It's a big question.

And I need to take my runny mascara off and get to bed now thanks to that video

Shocked at this: Labour MP Khalid Mahmood says

Twice as many British muslims are fighting for ISIS as in UK armed forces, ref e.g. Newsweek

He says the 500 figure quoted by various government departments are rubbish and criticises successive governments for totally mishandling radical British muslim issue.

btw: some people criticise muslims for not speaking out - well he is one of several who do and are very well qualified to advise, but seem ignored by government.

some people criticise muslims for not speaking out

Muslims speak out. But the news doesn't want it because it humanizes the enemy, so to speak. It's harder to sell to the public that we should run around killing these guys, if they're the same as us and want peace as much as we do.

The US media has done a good job putting these guys in a glass tank to stare and go "Whoa. Look how weird and different these guys are!". It's got a sort of carnival set up where you pay to look at the freak shows.

But that aside, here in the US I have not met any rude Muslims. You don't see Muslims in the news committing crimes over here.

MistressMia I hope you get hired by a think tank to advice this govt. Reading your post about Islam is really enlightening. And I write this as someone who grew up in a country with 55% Muslim population.

Very interesting posts Mistress Mia and when I reflect on the past I see you are spot on. I grew up in a very multicultural neighbourhood and remember us all trying on shalwar kameez's at school as part of Eid celebrations, and local mums painting our hands with henna. It was obviously very friendly and I also remember the dads in v western outfits. But I also remember the darker sides too (i.e. the 'no pakis racism you mention).

I wish we were reminded of the points you make on the news as it's not often one thinks back over the changing landscape of the last 20-30 years or so. It's presented as having always been the same. But even in my (and obviously your!) experience it is obvious things have changed. Could it be that muslim youth are just as angry and fatalistic as all the other youth (think the credit crunch riots, and all the online self-harm of the middle class kids too) but this is just one outlet available to them? Granted, more extreme.

God I wish I could just sit in a coffee shop with you lot all day discussing this, 'tis fascinating!

Incidentally it is also interesting to me the poster who says she has fire in her belly and that others should have a more emotional/visceral response to ISIS and the threat they pose. I don't hold the same position politically but I do kind of know what she means about super-rational debate to the point of being detatched can be a little scary. But I think it's just that people in this country feel so rarely threatened, it all feels a long way away - hence the armchair politician stance. Let's bloody hope that's the case. I myself am a little on the scared side. Sometimes I think about my child (very white/Western looking little blondie) and feel anxious about random UK ISIS-themed attacks.

KnittedJimmyChoos - did you read the article in its entirety? It's not "just 23" terrorists, there are at least 5 times that number now, and may be more. I think the rise in numbers is what has caused the money to be thrown at the problem - because it is quite a rapid expansion and if it continues to expand at that rate then it could become a very big problem within a very few years.

Many Jihadists aren't young men without prospects, but university educated, some were doctors or graduate engineers.
Also, there's a major difference between going off to commit war crimes, compared to some disadvantaged kids here getting caught up in a local riot, or opportunist looting of consumer goods.

Another aspect that concerns me is if any British children are forced to become child soldiers, like that Australian boy taken to Syria by his evil swine of a father, e.g. in Metro
pictured holding the severed head of a Syrian soldier

Such a damaged child couldn't just return to his school here. We could invest millions over the years trying to retrain any child soldier, but longterm prospects for such kids would be bleak.

I wonder where those boys mum is (the australians) and how with their dads background he got his hands on them? And what happened to his brother who told the world to 'get over it'. I suspect his neighbours in Australia may've have their own throught on this.

Frankly I hope that IF any are caught they are quietly disposed of behind the scenes. Plenty of people simply disappear in war zones, I'll keep my fingers crossed that fate will befall them.

No publicity for Jihadists, no perceived martyrdom, no legal costs, no expense in imprisoning them.

They have no qualms in summarily executing their victims - nor should we IMO. Would that make us as bad as them? I think not - we would be saving lives since one Jihadist will kill as many as he can.

anyone ever studied fascist regimes? sounds a bit like BMWs comments

BMW6 You're thinking too small. If we 'disposed' of all humans, we'd get rid of all the ills humans commit in the world.

But BMW does have a point. Churchillian behaviours do allow us to dispose of those we have no public way of dealing with and, in keeping schtum, we retain the semblance of a moral high ground.

It is one of those things we never say out loud... therefore it didn't happen.

Appalling, but necessary when faced with something too big to deal with openly...

... and bear in mind what I have said up thread before you judge me on this one post. It is wartime pragmatism to be wholly denied/hidden in peace time. We, the public, should never ever know about it.

That's why they are called the Secret Services, after all.

Nomama If we were at war with them, then their deaths would be accepted.

But we're not. So, what effect would killing them have? It's highly unlikely you would get them all. We don't even know who some of them are. And even if there's 1 left. That 1 could come back and recruit others. If you were to kill the leaders. Another would just pop up in his place.

Like I said earlier, it's not solving the problem.

I don't disagree, Username, that's why I asked readers to bear in mind my previous posts.

I was just commenting on the reality of BMWs post - we, the UK, have used such tactics before, successfully. We, myself included, might insist on the UK acting in a civilised, law abiding manner, remaining true to our ideology and not allowing fear to fundamentally change who we are... but we still have agencies that will do our dirty work for us, and not let us know about it. That is a reality we cannot shine too bright a light on (see the American version, Renditions etc).

yes it is very difficult. if the government put one foot wrong I suspect the jihadi freedom fighters? ? will have them in court with free legal aid no doubt claiming compensation etc. the former are supposedly educated people.

I was watching who do you think you are with the Isle of Man Internment camp in ww2. bit extreme but I don't think they should be allowed to return home to their families as if nothing has happened.

Agree with BMW. ( as would most most people in the real world ) but this is mumsnet.....

Even Muslims can't believe how soft we are on extremists here.

Nomama IMO the hypocrisy just add fuel to the terrorists fire.

I know that, Username. But that does not change the reality... we do have secret services, all governments do, and we do use them, secretly.

My point is that, historically, we have been better at keeping their actions secret than some other nations and so have managed that hypocrisy, on a public level, better than other nations too. Sometimes, but not all times!