to want to know why British Jihadi fighters will have their passports revoked?

[partyskirt]

Upon hearing that there are 500+ English muslims fighting in Syria and Iraq as part of the Isis army I immediately looked online for what would happen to them if they tried to return to the UK. I've listened to the news for days and read the papers, government websites etc. and it seems that they will simply be allowed back in. I find this extremely frightening. Why isn't there a clear line on what will happen to them if they try to return? Why isn't the government being clear that they will have passports cancelled and be exiled?

I don't think they will be.

But we in Britain hold a great responsibility for what has happened with our misplaced tolerance and refusal to take radicalisation seriously. We should have been more insistent that the overarching culture in Britain is liberal and tolerant.

I feel that the good name of our country and every value we hold dear has been besmirched.

We should have been more insistent that the overarching culture in Britain is liberal and tolerant.

So hardline tolerance and compulsory liberalism should have been rigorously enforced then?

We seem to be on the wrong end of a paradox.

I see what you mean, but you can stop, for example, what has happened in the Birmingham schools with more scrutiny of governing bodies. You can stop hate preaching at mosques.

I am amazed at the Australian Article all of that for 23 jidhadist? 630 millions dollars pumped into it all

So hardline tolerance and compulsory liberalism should have been rigorously enforced then? and the death penalty to all who oppose it. Viva la Revolucion.

I do think we need to not be such bloody hypocrites. Don't want Madrassas? Great. Please stop having compulsory worship of a Christian nature in schools. Don't want rape and child abuse by these forrin types? Fabulous. Maybe the BBC, Parliament and Catholic Church should put their house in order. Separation of Church and State is wonderful, right? We don't want Muslim states with Sharia Law. Get the Bishops out of The Lords, then.

I also think the stuff about British Muslims compared to Europeans ones is disingenuous. There is always going to be a difference between people from, for example Turkey (where a lot of German Muslims' families are) or North Africa (French) and Pakistan (Britain). Pakistan has been on the front line of a lot of problems, not least of which is a lot of funding by the Saudis in that area designed to get them to do their dirty work radicalise. Something might change when these poor, young people realise that they are being used. In a really nasty, cynical way.

Would you argue for the Aussies and Yanks who go to fight for the Israelis - who, after all, deliberately bomb schools and other UN places of safety with civilians inside - to likewise have their passports revoked? Or is it only British Muslims that you want to leave stateless? I don't really see what anyone can do about the phenomenon of mercenaries fighting in wars that aren't 'theirs' - it has always happened. It's just more anti-Muslim rhetoric to suggest that what these men are doing is in any way new, novel or more dangerous than what other mercenaries have got up to, around the world, since people started having wars.

Completely agree with your point about hypocrisy, MrsTerryPratchett.

"Aussies" and "Yanks" .

Would you argue for the Aussies and Yanks who go to fight for the Israelis - who, after all, deliberately bomb schools and other UN places of safety with civilians inside - to likewise have their passports revoked?

My understanding is that there is a US law to that effect re. citizens who fight for a foreign army. Will come back and look it up later if nobody beats me to it or corrects me.

I bet you a million dollars they don't enact it Arsenicy not binding. The US aren't going to revoke the nationality of their citizens who fight for Israel. No way.

Fingers crossed they die.

Yes, was just thinking that through, and chopping veg AND trying to type.

Wonder if it is a lonely dusty mouldering statute. Or did I imagine the whole thing?

It's one train of thought Patrick but it's not charitable and it's not good policy-making. A proportion will come back, that's a given.

No mention of passports being revoked for US people who go to join the Israeli army here:

www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/americans-fight-israel-lone-soldiers-gaza-strip-n161441

In fact, quite the opposite; the tone is pretty gung-ho. According to the writer, there are 6,000 mercenaries in Israel, 2,000 of whom are Americans.

The American-Israel thing is bizarre.

Seen a few US slebs get roasted for showing sympathy towards Gaza in their tweets. To the point they retract what they said or delete them.

Patriotic at the cost of empathy.

Americans have got form for supporting dodgy outfits - lots of dollars made their way to the IRA coffers, don't forget.

For what it's worth, yes I do think the Americans (and anyone) fighting for Israel should be arrested/punished!!

I do think we need to not be such bloody hypocrites. Don't want Madrassas? Great. Please stop having compulsory worship of a Christian nature in schools. Don't want rape and child abuse by these forrin types? Fabulous. Maybe the BBC, Parliament and Catholic Church should put their house in order. Separation of Church and State is wonderful, right? We don't want Muslim states with Sharia Law. Get the Bishops out of The Lords, then.

You are seriously comparing schools that have Christian worship with Madrassas? And Bishops having seats in the The Lords with Sharia Law?

Where did the rape and child abuse bit come from?

Including Israelis party? Could get tricky

I can't find the law I read about. MrsT is right about Israel, of course.

Not in practice Arsenicy but I do think they are BU.

And the same for Isis. They are BU. But I get that we should probably NBU when dealing with them

You are seriously comparing schools that have Christian worship with Madrassas? And Bishops having seats in the The Lords with Sharia Law?

Where did the rape and child abuse bit come from?

Comparing not saying they are the same. They are all on the same spectrum. I think religion should not be in schools, any schools. It is hard to argue that when we have religion in schools. You think fluffy Christian worship is different. I think any religion in schools is the thin end of the wedge. I think it's hard to argue that religious leaders shouldn't create law if we allow it. It's not the exact same but if we deal in shades of grey all the time, some darker and lighter shades will be hard to argue against.

People mentioned the sex slavery WRT ISIS/IS. Our own institutions are involved in child abuse and rape. That was the point i was trying to make.

Rape and child abuse has been found to be so widespread in the organisations listed by MrsPratchett as to be almost institutional in nature, I would argue, Abra1d. Look at what institutions do, not at what labels are put on them, when judging whether they are worthy of censure or not/whether people who support them should be censured or not. By my reckoning, that makes people who fight for the Islamic State to be worthy of opprobrium. But it also puts the non-conscripted part of the Israeli army on dodgy ground, despite stories that try to put a wholesome spin on US citizens who join it.

And indeed even the conscripted part of the Israeli army kills children, deliberately.

I'm finding these comparisons with Israel fascinating -- I didn't even know they had a non-conscripted faction... where do you find all this out? Radio 4 isn't telling me anything and nor are the papers.

Seriously I could read about this for hours-- but where?!