to be sick of all the "tell someone" nonsense following RW's death?

[cailindana]

My fb feed is full of trite messages saying "if you're suffering, talk to someone, we care, we will look after you blah blah blah." Bullshit. When I was severely depressed I did tell people - my GP, my parents, my sisters, my friends everyone. For the most part I got indifference, annoyance, "what can I do?" "get over it" "you're worrying mum," etc. It was only because DH is a bloody saint who spent hours and hours with me that I didn't kill myself. If he hadn't been there then I wouldn't be still alive.
I'm sure if I had killed myself, my family would have done the whole "I don't know why she did it, we had no idea," fuckwittery when in fact they would be perfectly aware of why I'd done it, they just wouldn't think it was a good reason and they would blame me for being cowardly.
Equally everyone else I know who is/was severely depressed is pretty open about it, in fact, I find that depressed people mention their condition quite a lot. The response is generally fear, a sense of not knowing what to say or how to respond, indifference or even disgust.

IME people who are in the depths of depression don't tell others because they have already told them in the past and got nowhere. Implying that if you are in that state all you need to do is "reach out" and someone will be there and everything will get better it totally inaccurate, very few people I know have had that experience. Even the very good kind close friends I had when I had PND last year essentially ignored the illness. They were helpful, very very helpful on a practical level (visiting, sorting out the kids etc) but they never asked me how I was or how the medication was working, I always had to bring it up and then they would just nod and mutter something encouraging. I don't blame them at all for that and I am extremely grateful for the ways in which they did help. It was actually on MN that I got the best support. Here, I met people who had gone through the same thing, who acknowledged my awful thoughts and feelings without trying to change my mind (the whole, "Oh it's not that bad!" that only makes depression sufferers feel they must be mental if no one else can see what they see) and gave me reassurance that yes it was shit but it would pass. They were here whenever I needed them, unlike RL friends who are understandably busy with their own lives.

Depression is a complex illness that requires specialist help. Talking does help, definitely, but a depressed person can't save or cure themselves by just being more open and talking more. Having someone listen is a welcome temporary relief but it doesn't treat the illness any more than talking to a cancer patient would treat their illness.

Saralyn I think you've hit the nail on the head there. When you haven't experienced depression it's very hard to comprehend the reasons a person may have for suicide. And those who haven't experienced suicidal thoughts do think it's because someone feels worthless or unloved.

The many times I have felt suicidal it wasn't because I felt worthless far from it, it was because I just wanted to stop feeling that way. I wanted to stop existing full stop.

It's very hard to get someone to understand that. They do try to find a logical reason. When depression is illogical, there is no logic in it. Someone suicidal does need professional help and treatment.

I think these people posting stuff on FB just need to make themselves feel better. Make themselves feel like they've done their bit and raised awareness. Then they can go back to their safe little lives that mental illness doesn't factor into.
I know that because I used to ne one of those people. Mental illness was something that happened to other people not me! Then I got PND and boom my safe little world fell apart.

If RW's death can help anything it should be to get through to people that mental illness, whether it's depression, anxiety, bipolar or schizophrenia can happen to anyone at anytime. It doesn't discriminate, don't ever think you're immune because it could happen when you least expect it and it will turn your world on it's head.

Haven't read all the responses on here OP but YANBU. Obviously telling someone helps particularly with men who are more reluctant to talk about their emotions and who have a higher rate of suicide.

But dealing with a long term depressive is tough and most people, as you note, dismiss it or nod and smile as it were.

What we need is more investment in services, far more nhs counselling available and much more research.

Suicide also impacted my family when step dad shot himself in 2012 so I know how bad it can get and the major gaps in care and services.

YANBU.

I have not RTFT, just your op.

On the one hand I have been depressed and felt unable to speak to any of the people I hold dear, my dp, closest friend, mum.

On the other hand, if anything makes people start taking mental health issues seriously then that is very important .

One day mental health problems will be considered both 1) normal as a broken leg 2) as important as any other illness

Have to say l agree ..my dh has serious depression..he has talked to doctors etc and to me of course but generally people do not want to know. To be honest there are times l dont want to know. He can be doing well for ages and l relax and it comes back and sometimes my thoughts are..no! no! .don't tell me l have had enough. I have one friend who cares the rest just don't mention it...one friend in our circle is ill at the moment and everyone is rallying around..rightly so..but my dh has been ill for years and its just ignored.I hate depression ..l have never found a good way to cope with it..

Iwasin

Thank you and your psych sounds like a total self righteous bastard. How dare he say that to you? He is a disgrace.

I am sorry that happened.

That is a perfectly reasonable thing to say to someone
How you hear that when you are very depressed is another matter but it is a reasonable thing to say

I wish that point could be stressed ronalddonald. I got the impression from the beginning with this thread that I must be some kind of insensitive ogre because I could even dream of saying something as trite and stupid and thoughtless as "I wish you could enjoy life more" to someone who could be or is suffering from depression.

(not just that one phrase, but others too)

I almost feel as though it's being advocated that non-depressive people just don't open their mouths to depressed people, or people they don't know the MH history of, for the fear of saying the wrong thing. My husbands "rock" line was stated as better not to be said at all.

I think people suffering from depressing have to place some onus on themselves to inform those around them which phrases/words/terms they don't want to hear. It is not fair to judge someone negatively for saying something as reasonable as "I wish you could enjoy life more".

Family members of those suffering from depression often feel they are walking on egg shells around the depressed family member. Many posts on this thread show exactly why that is.

Slow, please dont feel like that. I'd say there isnt a right thing to say to someone with depression that will help them feel better. Just like there is nothing you can say to someone that will grow back their leg. They are ill, its good that you care, but nothing you say will actually help.

One that particualrly bugs me is "you wont understand depression unless you've had it". Because yes, you wont understand how it feels, but even knowing how it feels wont make someone better if you talk to them about it. To use the overused analogy yet again - having had cancer and knowing about it doesnt make you able to help with someone elses just by telling them about it.

"I think people suffering from depressing have to place some onus on themselves to inform those around them which phrases/words/terms they don't want to hear. It is not fair to judge someone negatively for saying something as reasonable as "I wish you could enjoy life more"."

I dont want to hear any platitudes, at all. I want to be dead. I am in physical and mental pain daily, i dont give a shit what you (general you) think about it or wish for me.

In fact, someone showing that they care makes it harder, as i feel like i have to pretend that their thoughts are helping me to feel better, when underneath the thoughts are the same.

Short answer. There is no right answer.

Don't get me wrong Beyond, I know nothing I say will make them better. But some times words aren't used just to attempt to make someone better. Sometimes they are used simply because manners dictate we respond.

Say for instance you suffer from depression. We work together, but not closely, but we chat now and again at the water cooler/photo copier, we like each other fine. I ask in passing at the water cooler how you are, you say "well it's not been so grand lately Slow, my depression is quite bad at the moment". Now if I had the time I probably would offer to talk and listen, if you wanted to, that is. But for the sake of this post I will say I am on deadline and have to get back to my desk. So I say something like "Geez Beyond, I'm very sorry to hear that. I wish your life could be easier and happier".

I would be absolutely mortified if you posted about me on an internet forum, or said to friends/family about what a trite and awful thing I said, how that comment made you feel suicidal, how thoughtless and insensitive I was.

That's the kind of things that I feel are quite hurtful to those of us not suffering from depression, but just trying our best to say something we hope is supportive, but possibly coming over a bit clunky because of time constraints or embarrassment or lack of MH knowledge, or whatever.

To be told point blank that "whatever line" is just insensitive and cruel. When it's not. Yes it could be if the whole context was known and there was more to it than just those words. But a phrase like the above, well I don't think someone should be attacked for using it. Or many of the other things that people on this thread have stated are unreasonable/cruel/hurtful/useless/trite things to say.

Even posting on this thread is giving me the "walking on eggshells" feeling. Not aimed at you by the way, just a general feeling that many on this thread think that people like me are insensitive and just throw out a trite useless word or two out of politeness. I am nothing like that. I have been around depression since the day I was born and I do care deeply and understand somewhat how tough a road it is for depression sufferers.

Yes it disturbed me when Ronald's first comment was shut down with 'Have you reads the thread?' when (1) it was a perfectly reasonable comment and (2) on this thread, of all threads, there should be a place for everyone to comment without fear of censure.

Fact is, there are no absolutes and none of us are mind readers. Everyone on here seems to be wanting to do their best.

Rationally, there is a clear difference between a kind person who doesn't enjoy the thought that someone is suffering and tries, however ineffectually but from sincere intent, to say something that essentially means "I am genuinely sorry to hear things aren't great for you, I wish for your sake that you weren't ill" and someone who doesn't care, doesn't think and wishes for their own selfish reasons (whatever they might be) that the person wasn't depressed. I think, or would hope, that most of us on this thread can recognise that distinction.

The problem is that by their very definition, depression and other mental illnesses aren't particularly conducive to rational thought and perception. I know when my DH is in the tight grip of depression he can hear kindly-meant good wishes and dismisses them as "platitudes" because they can't help, however much the other person might wish they could, or assumes that the person is wishing an improvement for him so that he can stop being a nuisance / burden / embarrassment to them when in fact no such thought exists in their mind, only in his because that's how he thinks of himself.

The phrase I find myself using quite often to my husband is "I wish there was something I could do to make things better for you". That gives him the opening to say "actually, today you could do X..." if there is something that might help, however temporarily, or just to say "me too" if there isn't.

I once had the crisis team involved In my case of depression. I used to feel like they were basically saying 'well.. go on then' if I said I felt suicidal. I genuinely wanted to die every day for about 10 months.

Now I'm recovered I'm so glad I'm still here. And maybe I wouldn't have taken my own life by now. Maybe they were right. But it feels really awesome just 'telling someone' and them just basically rolling their eyes and saying yeah yeah.

signyourpost I like that last paragraph. I liked when my husband would ask me similar questions. I felt like he really cared, even though he knew full well he couldn't do anything to help. But I knew he at least took me seriously and wished he could wave a magic wand.

signyourname lol @ my baby brain

I do sometimes say that too, ithoughtofitfirst - "I wish I could wave a magic wand and take it away for you". I know some people would say "well you haven't got one and they don't exist, so what's the point of saying it?" but it helps my DH - or he says it does - for similar reasons to you, because he knows I mean it.

I find dealing with my husband, or my close friend (both suffer from depression), far easier than dealing with the scenario above where I posed beyond as my pretend colleague who was depressed.

With my husband and my friend I always have the time to talk and listen properly, if not this minute or in the next hour, then after dinner definitely. So I don't ever worry about "just dishing out a platitude" to them, because I will always have enough time for a proper talk, a proper listen, and I know them inside-out and back-to-front too, so that makes it far easier. I think the "trite platitude" risk is higher with people we know less well, or see less frequently. I still don't see saying something like "geez friend, I wish your life was easier" as in any way, shape or form rude or insensitive.

And I don't mean to zone in on that one phrase... many phrases posters in this thread have deemed trite/insensitive/useless are simply not from the p.o.v of the person saying it, or for that matter to the ears of every person receiving it. Unless there is some rulebook that says "this phrase is out of bounds and it's universally known" then I do still think the onus should be on the depressed person to communicate to those around them what phrases set their teeth on edge.

It's like, I would never refer to a black person using the N-word. We all know that. But if there was a black person who hated the "black person" phrase, and wanted to be called the brown person, well the onus is on him (her) to tell me that. It's just plain rude if he (or she) slagged me off as rude and insensitive on the internet for referring to him as black.

Slow I'm finding it hard to stay calm reading your posts. It's great that you support your DH and friend so thoroughly, but your wider comments about mental health display a staggering ignorance.

The onus is not on the ill person to tell you what phrases make them feel better or worse. It's not about you. They don't necessarily know what will help or hinder on a given day, let alone generally. Sharing the fact of their illness with you is usually a big deal. If you say the wrong thing for the right reasons, good on you for trying. I hope you would do similar for someone eg going through chemotherapy or struggling with arthritis.

But sometimes you can't be right. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try; it doesn't mean your friend is ungrateful; it just means it isn't about you. However hard you find the encounter, it is a fair bet it's easier for you than it is for them.

It can be really, really draining talking to someone who likes/needs to fix things. Don't be that person.

Thanks guys, I work in this field and am pretty thoughtful, not easily offended
It is nice that someone felt that something I said made a little sense

OP I agree with you so much. People just couldn't give a damn. I have been recognising early depression symptoms and started a thread in mental health. One reply :(

Fatal, you summed up what i was trying to say a little better than my rambling nonsense! :)

Cabbage, I feared I would get a reply like that. That’s what I meant when I said I felt like I was walking on egg shells in this whole thread.

It’s ok for depressed to come on here and slate their friends who once gave them (what they consider) a meaningless platitude. But it’s not ok to look at the view point of the person who gave it. They didn’t think it was a meaningless platitude, they thought it was a supportive thing to say. Is it fair to slate truly well-meaning people off on internet forums?

Yes some people do just say something meaningless to “give a reply”. But not all the people all of the time. Some of us do really try, and do genuinely care.

In the scenario I wrote above, if I had said (to my imaginary colleague Beyond) “Geez Beyond, I'm very sorry to hear that. I wish your life could be easier and happier”. Yes she is allowed to find that useless/trite/insensitive phrase, given by a pillock. But I can 100% assure you it would not be meant that way. How am I to know that phrase would be hated? It’s a normal, supportive enough thing to say to someone suffering depression. Should I be ridiculed on the internet for it? I don’t think so.

I don’t and never have thought these comments were about me, but I would like to stick up for well meaning people who say normal supportive things, who then get laughed or sneered at on the internet.

I am sorry if my post has hurt you. It wasn’t my intention.

I am sorry you think I am staggeringly ignorant towards mental health problems. I’m not.

But people who don’t have mental health problems, well they can still hurt too. And I would be cut to the bone if someone I had genuinely tried to be supportive to, ridiculed my efforts on the internet with words like useless, trite and meaningless or said my saying “I wish your life was easier” made them feel worse/suicidal.

Slow I read your posts and I'm sorry if I offended by dismissing a phrase that is helpful to your DH. I appreciate that it may be helpful to some people and I probably didn't express that enough in my own post.

People are different. My mum hated it with a passion if people called her 'a fighter' or worse 'an inspiration' when she had terminal cancer - she would far rather that they speculated with her on whether Lorraine Kelly had had dodgy Botox recently or something normal. Other people would have found someone turning up to gossip about Carol Vorderman for two hours really insensitive (not least Carol Vorderman, I'm sure), but it helped her at the time.

What matters is that the Ill Person, for want of a better phrase, is not treated by people they know as an Ill Person, but as the person they are. I'm Vlad who runs a bit and can still do a few tricks on a skateboard and used to do quite convincing Tony Blair impressions - not The Bereaved Person or The Former Anorexic (or The Mum, but that's another story). When people treat you as if you're not you any more it makes things worse. The ill person (small letters) is dragging themselves around making an effort to seem normal - and sometimes they need people to recognize that they're still essentially themselves underneath it all.

If I could draw on here I could probably explain it a bit better... I agree, it is really hard to support a depressed person (I'm doing it now) and feel pushed away all the time - but not quite sure the onus is on them to say "here's a list of things that will really help". Though I might put one together in case of emergencies...

Ok, let me clarify, because either I'm writing wrong or you're reading wrong.

A mentally ill person's response to your attempts to be supportive says more about their illness than their character.What helps today might not help tomorrow, and nobody can tell.

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't have tried. It does mean you don't have a right to be affronted if she doesn't react how you'd have liked.

In the same way, if you give someone an unexpected gift, she is under no obligation to like it, even if your sister/cousin/mother would have liked it. She might be gracious enough not to tell you she doesn't like it, but complain to her husband (or on the "decorative gifts" thread) about it later. That doesn't make the gift intrinsically crap, or the giving ill-intentioned.

You probably can't mend the mental illness of anyone you meet, and you acknowledge that in your chosen phrase. But don't assume we are looking to you for healing, or even necessarily support. "I'm sorry, that must be hard" would be better IMHO simply because it doesn't tap into that "healing" thing, which risks placing an obligation on the ill person.