to be sick of all the "tell someone" nonsense following RW's death?

[cailindana]

My fb feed is full of trite messages saying "if you're suffering, talk to someone, we care, we will look after you blah blah blah." Bullshit. When I was severely depressed I did tell people - my GP, my parents, my sisters, my friends everyone. For the most part I got indifference, annoyance, "what can I do?" "get over it" "you're worrying mum," etc. It was only because DH is a bloody saint who spent hours and hours with me that I didn't kill myself. If he hadn't been there then I wouldn't be still alive.
I'm sure if I had killed myself, my family would have done the whole "I don't know why she did it, we had no idea," fuckwittery when in fact they would be perfectly aware of why I'd done it, they just wouldn't think it was a good reason and they would blame me for being cowardly.
Equally everyone else I know who is/was severely depressed is pretty open about it, in fact, I find that depressed people mention their condition quite a lot. The response is generally fear, a sense of not knowing what to say or how to respond, indifference or even disgust.

IME people who are in the depths of depression don't tell others because they have already told them in the past and got nowhere. Implying that if you are in that state all you need to do is "reach out" and someone will be there and everything will get better it totally inaccurate, very few people I know have had that experience. Even the very good kind close friends I had when I had PND last year essentially ignored the illness. They were helpful, very very helpful on a practical level (visiting, sorting out the kids etc) but they never asked me how I was or how the medication was working, I always had to bring it up and then they would just nod and mutter something encouraging. I don't blame them at all for that and I am extremely grateful for the ways in which they did help. It was actually on MN that I got the best support. Here, I met people who had gone through the same thing, who acknowledged my awful thoughts and feelings without trying to change my mind (the whole, "Oh it's not that bad!" that only makes depression sufferers feel they must be mental if no one else can see what they see) and gave me reassurance that yes it was shit but it would pass. They were here whenever I needed them, unlike RL friends who are understandably busy with their own lives.

Depression is a complex illness that requires specialist help. Talking does help, definitely, but a depressed person can't save or cure themselves by just being more open and talking more. Having someone listen is a welcome temporary relief but it doesn't treat the illness any more than talking to a cancer patient would treat their illness.

Argh, posted too soon! I think as pps have said that there are a lot of kind-hearted people who want to help, who genuinely want to help - and a few people who want to stick a plaster on things so it goes away.

Telling someone 'it's about learning to dance in the rain, now make the most of this learning experience and move on' the day after a bereavement, for example, is not really helpful. My colleague saying 'I have no idea what to say except if you want to walk and talk, or just walk, let me know" the day after my mum died was wonderful.

I don't think anyone wants to dismiss a kind person who uses a phrase that the depressed person doesn't find helpful - just that the phrase in itself won't fix the condition like a magic wand.

Namechange fail at 1755 - have reported and will hopefully be sorted. Fecking doorbell rang mid-post.

I'd be grateful if you didn't reference my other nn in replies. "She" isn't outed as being ill.

MrsH, Vlad, neither of you said anything that remotely hurt me, and I don't disagree remotely with anything you have said just now. I just don't like this idea that people like me, who say something that is genuinely meant from the heart, but could possibly be a bit clunky, get slagged off on internet forums as being trite and insensitive and useless. I know I am none of those things, but I started to get the feeling on this thread "crikey, maybe the next time I meet that imaginary colleague at the water cooler, the one who suffers from depression, I won't bother asking how she is, because look at the trouble it could get me into".

And that kind of thought, coming from someone like me, is I not I think in the best interests of the wider MH awareness and acceptance.

A thread like this also can't work in that a positive way for someone reading it thinking of starting up a relationship with a depression sufferer or reaching out to someone they know with depression. It shows an awful lot of harsh judgments of otherwise well meaning, kind hearted people.

I don't expect my exchange with imaginary colleague to cure her or fix her. I also don't expect her to slag me off on mumsnet as some insensitive ogre.

That was my issue. The pasting well meaning people get (were getting).

We're not responsible for depression awareness or encouraging someone to have a relationship though, we're being honest about our experiences. Depression, as well as making people sad or suicidal, makes them bloody irritable. So yes, i am irritable. Yes, I am annoyed at well wishers, no matter how genuine their sentiment. This upsets you does it? My posts arent "working in a positive way" for non-suffers reading? Boo fucking hoo.

If someone really cares and really listens... however they demonstrate it can mean a great deal to a depressed person. Then again it can mean nothing.. as in.. the sufferer is suffering so badly it makes no difference. It's all so complex. I really sympathise for those caring for someone suffering from mental health problems.

What I feared or expected - being told "boo fucking hoo you".

Maybe if you want people to be nicer to you, it might help being nice to them too.

Maybe if you want people not to make trite statements, it might help to actually listen and try understanding the ones who go out of their way not to.

Maybe if you want understanding and empathy you should try giving it others too.

Maybe you shouldn't ridicule well-meaning friends/relatives on internet forums, for their sole crime of being clunky laymen.

Just some "way out there" ideas to mull over.

That's the generic "you" incidentally, not a specific you.

If someone really cares and really listens... however they demonstrate it can mean a great deal to a depressed person. Then again it can mean nothing.. as in.. the sufferer is suffering so badly it makes no difference. It's all so complex. I really sympathise for those caring for someone suffering from mental health problems.

thoughtofit - I don't mind if my imaginary colleague at the water cooler felt my words were nothing and made no difference. I know no words I can say will cure or fix a depressed person.

I just don't like the attacking of, the ridiculing of, well meaning people trying their best (walking through something they know could be a minefield, and it is a minefield they could easily avoid by just not communicating or deliberately dishing out platitudes and making a hasty exit).

This thread is actually demonstrating to me why some people maybe just dish out a trite platitude and make a hasty exit when they meet up with their depressed friend.

That saddens me.

Slow, if you are prepared to allow the thought of a hypothetical "slagging off" on an internet forum to prevent you from showing concern or compassion for the next person you encounter with depression, then I'm afraid it's coming across as you needing to feel like a special snowflake.

IF that happened then all it means is that your comment was unhelpful to THAT person on THAT day. It doesn't mean all people with depression will react the same way or that someone is undeserving of future acts of compassion just because their reaction doesn't act as an ego-stroke for you.

Maybe if you want people to be nicer to you, it might help being nice to them too

Seriously? You think people who might be feeling as low as it's possible to get, who feel utterly worthless, a waste of space, a burden, who may well be planning how they can kill themselves in order to stop being all of those things, should somehow find the wherewithal to be nicer to you - random colleague/acquaintance - so that your feelings aren't hurt about something you say being taken the wrong way?

Just take a step back and think about what you're saying here.

slow, if you are prepared to allow the thought of a hypothetical "slagging off" on an internet forum to prevent you from showing concern or compassion for the next person you encounter with depression

not at all sign, I am as thick skinned as they come. An internet slagging off will be water off this duck's back and I will carry on being me doing what I always do. But I don't find it nice for other people who are possibly more sensitive than then me that they should be ridiculed for trying their best under very tough circumstances. In general, I don't like seeing people being ridiculed for any reason.

We already have a MH professional (ronald) on this thread state that the phrase "I wish your life could be easier" is a perfectly normal thing to say to a depression sufferer. I don't like to think of the person who said that getting an internet slagging off.

I am allowed to feel that way. I am allowed to voice that opinion. And still not feel like a special snowflake. LOL.

Slow, you do realise that you're essentially saying "stop being so negative about stuff, be nicer and think about other people's feelings more".

That is the equivalent of saying to a cancer patient "just stop having a tumour" or "FFS, just try harder to remember stuff" to someone with dementia.

Seriously? You think people who might be feeling as low as it's possible to get, who feel utterly worthless, a waste of space, a burden, who may well be planning how they can kill themselves in order to stop being all of those things, should somehow find the wherewithal to be nicer to you - random colleague/acquaintance - so that your feelings aren't hurt about something you say being taken the wrong way?

No, not at all. Of course they don't need to think of other people's feelings in real life when their lot is that much worse at that moment. But do they need to come on to the internet and ridicule well meaning, genuine, caring people? Does that help depression in some way I am unaware of?

Maybe if you want people to be nicer to you, it might help being nice to them too. i dont want people to be nice to me, i want to die

Maybe if you want people not to make trite statements, it might help to actually listen and try understanding the ones who go out of their way not to. i dont want nontrite, nor to listen and understand, i want to die

Maybe if you want understanding and empathy you should try giving it others too. i dont want understanding and empathy, i want to die

.

I've said upthread, i am not going to kill myself. Not now anyway, although i cant guarantee i'll never again have a split second urge to die right that second. I do have a genuine wish to not be in constant physical and emotional pain - that is so extreme i wish i every day that i were dead. Every day i wish i hadnt had children, because it is because of them that i am still alive. No way would i deal with this shit if i didnt have to.

But, as i also said upthread, im also apparently not ill enough to warrant referral to a psychiatrist

But do they need to come on to the internet and ridicule well meaning, genuine, caring people? Does that help depression in some way I am unaware of ?

Firstly, I haven't seen any "ridicule" on this thread. I've seen frustration, annoyance at people's hypocrisy, sincere and valid exasperation at the use of certain phrases which some people find trite and meaningless (as they are entitled to do), but no "ridicule". Reading back through the thread, the greatest criticism is reserved for those who could not be described as "well meaning, genuine, caring people" by any standard but for those who deny the seriousness of depression, who let their impatience with continued illness show, who treat their depressed family or friends as a burden or embarrassment.

Secondly, letting off steam amongst people who know exactly what is meant, who feel or have felt much the same thing, who understand how wearing it can be to keep the mask on, to keep pretending things are better than they are, to feel some kind of obligation to appear "well" or "normal" for the sake of other people - including those well-meaning people who only want to help or fix things, without realising that can be a massive pressure in itself - does help. It's a rare opportunity to let the mask drop, to tell it like it is, to be honest.

"do they need to come on to the internet and ridicule well meaning, genuine, caring people? Does that help depression in some way I am unaware of?"

Umm, you came on to our thread about genuine experiences with depression to whinge about how you use such phrases to people with depression, and we are all being mean to say they sometimes are pointless at best, damaging at worst. Then you say that...

"A thread like this also can't work in that a positive way for someone reading it thinking of starting up a relationship with a depression sufferer or reaching out to someone they know with depression. It shows an awful lot of harsh judgments of otherwise well meaning, kind hearted people."

So not only are we hurting your feelings, but damaging our own 'cause' with our honesty?

Me: I have been diagnosed with post natal depression.
Dsis1: Don't be ridiculous!
Dsis2: But I saw you laughing yesterday! You aren't depressed. You are just bored.
Dsis1: And even if you were depressed, why does it have to be PND? If anything it would just be ordinary depression.
Me: But I just had a baby!
Dsis2: Exactly! It's boring having a baby to look after. Everyone feels the same.

I didn't tell too many other people after that conversation. Luckily my therapist was a legend.

Completely op. I have severe anxiety and telling people does fuck all. They can't help or don't want to. I've had therapy which was useless and they just discharged me. Even when I had the crisis team because I walked out on my job and told the doctor I as self harming they did nothing. Telling someone doesn't fix it. Real help would be it just isn't there and even less so now with nhs cuts.

Sorry slow I didn't mean to put it quite so bluntly I was just trying to be diplomatic in saying that at my worst I felt very much like beyond as in I just want to die.

Slow, you do realise that you're essentially saying "stop being so negative about stuff, be nicer and think about other people's feelings more".

No sign, saying I think many of you are being far too harsh on some genuine, well-meaning people is nowhere near that. You can twist as much as you like, but that is not what I said, have ever said, or would ever say. I can stick up for people with depression, and at the same time I can stick up for family members and friends of depressed people too. The two are not mutually exclusive you know.

That is the equivalent of saying to a cancer patient "just stop having a tumour"

No it’s not. It’s the equivalent of me saying to a cancer sufferer, “I wish you didn’t have cancer”. Then the cancer sufferer going on to the internet and ridiculing me for saying that, calling me pointless and insensitive and trite. Then me coming along and saying “geez, it definitely wasn’t the best thing on earth to say, but I was a bit clunky because I don’t have that much experience of friends having cancer, and I was kind of stuck for words”.

you came on to our thread about genuine experiences with depression to whinge

Beyond, sorry, I had no idea it was “your” thread and I gate-crashed it (that’s the collective and not the individual you). I thought I was allowed to post on it. I originally posted after I read the slating that Jason Manford bloke got for his twitter post about Robbie Williams. Which I incidentally found a genuine, heartfelt post. I didn’t come onto whinge, I came on to say I don’t think all criticism is valid as some people are expressing genuine feelings/sentiments. Is that allowed on your thread. Or is “toe our line or fuck off”?

thoughtofit I didn’t find your post at all blunt. It was very polite and calm. I hope my response to you didn’t make you think otherwise. Like I say, your post was fine, it looked at both sides, was non-confrontational etc. But I was kind of getting it from a few different sides at that moment and perhaps replied a bit abruptly to you. All I really meant was, sometimes when polite platitudes like the one I “staged” above at the pretend water cooler do occur in real life. The person does have to get back to their desk. They do care. But they are pressed for time. They are not (necessarily) being trite and fobbing someone off with a meaningless platitude. And I don’t think they deserve being looked down on for not being “perfect” in the moment.

beans if that is how your sister reacts I can well imagine you have difficulty confiding in others. I am so happy my husband has never had a single person be so uncaring and nasty towards him when he has been open about his illness. Thank goodness you found a good therapist.

People are often not as compassionate in reality as they believe themselves to be on facebook.

^^ this

Seriously? You think people who might be feeling as low as it's possible to get, who feel utterly worthless, a waste of space, a burden, who may well be planning how they can kill themselves in order to stop being all of those things, should somehow find the wherewithal to be nicer to you - random colleague/acquaintance - so that your feelings aren't hurt about something you say being taken the wrong way?

Bluntly, yes. Depression isn't a get out of jail free card for treating people poorly. If your coping skills are so poor that you're snapping at an acquaintance or work colleague, you need to stay home that day. Just like you wouldn't go into work with a bad cold, don't go in when your depression is overwhelming.

I was raised by a parent with undiagnosed ptsd, and she is 100% responsible for everything she did to us growing up. She doesn't get to blame it on mental illness for the abuse she put us through. It's a reason, but it doesn't absolve personal responsibility.

But more to the point, you can't tell if someone is depressed unless they tell you, or you know them extremely well. It's very easy to put on a happy face. So if you're acting happy, people aren't going to understand the seriousness of what you're going through. You're the adult, and you know when you're losing control. If you're not going to get help at that point, it's on you.

Also, you're expecting a bit much from work colleagues. You wouldn't expect an acquaintance to do much more than say "Hope you feel better" to a cancer person. Why expect someone you hardly know to go the extra mile for depression? If an acquaintance snapped at me, I'd stay away and not give a second chance.

I say this as someone with an anxiety disorder. When it spiraled out of control, I got help, I didn't keep letting it fester and expect the world to cater to me.

I spent so many, many days thinking of how I could kill myself and make it look like an accident. Partly because I knew the horrendous pain of family members who have experienced a suicide and partly because I'm an RMN and didn't want any of my colleagues to know I'd 'crossed to the other side from professional to service user' as it were.

I was and am a bloody good nurse. But I was surrounded by people who were in pain and many who had the most horrendous things happen to them and many who were doing horrendous things to other people.

I'd had horrendous things happen to me and it all made sense, it was because of me. Horrendous things happened to me and people around me because of ME. Something wrong with me that made bad things happen.

I have spent countless sleepless nights in so much emotional and psychological pain that I felt it would surely kill me and I longed for my seemingly inevitable death. There were the most extreme days when I began to think it had killed me and I was already dead.

That was depressive thinking. I was depressed. When you're depressed there is no light, nothing positive. Everything; no matter how well-meaning is just fucking wrong.

I hated the people who didn't seem to care and hated the people who did. I hated the prople who asked if I was alright and hated the people that didn't ask. I hated the people who would just sit with me and let me be and hated the people who wanted to talk.

I asked people to leave me alone and hated the people who did what I'd asked. I hated the people who offered advice and hated the people who just listened.

Depression is a condition which by it's very nature means the individual has a negative view of themselves and/the whole world. It's really bloody difficult to say the 'right thing' as even kind thoughts/acts can always be given a negative spin by the depressed person. I thought my colleagues were a bunch of cunts for sending me flowers and a card where people wrote beautiful and loving things because to my mind at the time, it was all sarcasm and taking the piss out of me.

Most people are just bumbling along in life and doing their best and not meaning to hurt anyone.

You are whinging about people who are sick, slow. I am disengaging from you now.

Mrsbolden, thanks for explaining it so clearly