to be sick of all the "tell someone" nonsense following RW's death?

[cailindana]

My fb feed is full of trite messages saying "if you're suffering, talk to someone, we care, we will look after you blah blah blah." Bullshit. When I was severely depressed I did tell people - my GP, my parents, my sisters, my friends everyone. For the most part I got indifference, annoyance, "what can I do?" "get over it" "you're worrying mum," etc. It was only because DH is a bloody saint who spent hours and hours with me that I didn't kill myself. If he hadn't been there then I wouldn't be still alive.
I'm sure if I had killed myself, my family would have done the whole "I don't know why she did it, we had no idea," fuckwittery when in fact they would be perfectly aware of why I'd done it, they just wouldn't think it was a good reason and they would blame me for being cowardly.
Equally everyone else I know who is/was severely depressed is pretty open about it, in fact, I find that depressed people mention their condition quite a lot. The response is generally fear, a sense of not knowing what to say or how to respond, indifference or even disgust.

IME people who are in the depths of depression don't tell others because they have already told them in the past and got nowhere. Implying that if you are in that state all you need to do is "reach out" and someone will be there and everything will get better it totally inaccurate, very few people I know have had that experience. Even the very good kind close friends I had when I had PND last year essentially ignored the illness. They were helpful, very very helpful on a practical level (visiting, sorting out the kids etc) but they never asked me how I was or how the medication was working, I always had to bring it up and then they would just nod and mutter something encouraging. I don't blame them at all for that and I am extremely grateful for the ways in which they did help. It was actually on MN that I got the best support. Here, I met people who had gone through the same thing, who acknowledged my awful thoughts and feelings without trying to change my mind (the whole, "Oh it's not that bad!" that only makes depression sufferers feel they must be mental if no one else can see what they see) and gave me reassurance that yes it was shit but it would pass. They were here whenever I needed them, unlike RL friends who are understandably busy with their own lives.

Depression is a complex illness that requires specialist help. Talking does help, definitely, but a depressed person can't save or cure themselves by just being more open and talking more. Having someone listen is a welcome temporary relief but it doesn't treat the illness any more than talking to a cancer patient would treat their illness.

ADHD what if the help doesn't actually help?

Depression isn't a get out of jail free card for treating people poorly. If your coping skills are so poor that you're snapping at an acquaintance or work colleague, you need to stay home that day. Just like you wouldn't go into work with a bad cold, don't go in when your depression is overwhelming

NoodlesI agree with you completely, it's not a get out of jail card. I am maybe lucky my husband agrees with me on this. Maybe not as far as I am concerned because I know he sometimes needs someone to be shitty to, and I am there, lol. But that's an agreement we've reached together. As far as the rest of the world goes, he treats people with respect. Period. When he feels he can't, or feels he might "bite out" at others. He retreats. I do any explaining that may cause. He doesn't get to treat other people in any shitty ways at all. His therapist holds him firmly to account on this too.

Even the annoying neighbour who always says the most trivial things ever to him, poor thing, she does genuinely think fresh air cures depression. Bless her, but she is a great person in every other way, and she does genuinely like and care for my husband (she almost broke my door down one time when the ambulance pulled up for my H), and she would fight for him if need be, like a bloody terrier. She is just a bit clueless with the "you need a hobby and lots of fresh air Mr Slow, then you'll be fine in a month". She grates on him at low times so if I see her at the door (when he is in a bad way) we have a code-word and he grabs his phone and carries on his pretend conversation and takes it upstairs away from her.

I would swing for him if he was rude or ungrateful to that neighbour, or any person in our life, just because of his depression. His therapist wouldn't stand for it either.

Ah yes "help". I've had depression for 14 years, since i was 14. I have taken a lot of different antidepressants prescribed by my GP and had a load of (private) cbt. As I've said already, i'm not severe enough to see a psychiatrist. After one particularly bad episode, i did get as far as a cmht nurse. Who told me it was "just" postnatal depression and signed me off.

You are whinging about people who are sick, slow. I am disengaging from you now.

beyond

1. I am not whinging. I am talking, discussing, holding a different pov to you.
2. I know you are sick, that you have an illness. I don't believe that illness, to use Noodle's words, is a get out of jail free card.
3. I think disengaging if my words upset you is probably a good thing to do.

mrsbolton, that was a very enlightening post, very well expressed. Thank you for sharing. I think it helps people like me get better insight.

In reality, part of the treatment for depression does include working with the person to see things from the perspective of others because Depression can make people very insular and insulated. Their insight and ability to empathise may distort and actually, it can be harmful to not address this. it is not unfair or selfish to encourage a person with depression to maintain empathy and actually have firm boundaries when it comes to this. The dynamic infects the whole family unit and ensuring that the whole families needs and feelings are recognised by everybody- including the ill person is paramount.

Blunted affect means just that. Your full range of human emotions become deadened and dull. By working with somebody towards reintegrating the full range of human feelings into their other relationships (and not just the one they have with themselves and their depression), they begin to understand the impact their illness has upon others and the challenges this imposes upon the attempts by others to help and understand. This obviously requires skill because what we need to avoid is instilling guilt whilst underlining the importance of taking responsibility for the work of getting well again. We cannot do it for the person. And it is work.

Fact is, depression can end up being the thing you have the most intimate relationship with and this does need interrupting. Depression is a horrible illness but it can also have secondary gain and that gain may encompass avoiding doing anything remotely uncomfortable, challenging or different. That can be very challenging for the MHP as some people cling to the life they have ended up with because as awful as it is, it is at least familiar. It protects in a horribly restrictive way.

When family or friends or MHPs try to 'help,' the depressed person can react very negatively because the work of recovery is just too much to contemplate. And at the time it doesn't feel worth it to them.

I think the impact on family life is horrendous, that's why I posted earlier that families should be given support and at least an understanding of what's going through the mind of their depressed family member. That way at least they can protect themselves from the hurt. Family members are very involved because they are just attached - a parent or a child will always feel hurt by a depressed person's behaviour if they don't understand it and that's what they need help with. It can turn into guilt, confusion, misunderstandings that result in family fallout just when the family needs to be strong for the depressed person. A depressed person can rip a family apart through no fault of their own and no fault of their family's.

I knew nothing about depression, all I could do was behave like I always did, so met bad behaviour with disapproval or a negative response. No idea whether it was the right thing to do but my db committed suicide anyway, leaving guilt-ridden partner, children, mothers, siblings. I'm not angry with him, just angry that we weren't given support. It's wrecked so many lives. I watched him die with his son, his partner couldn't handle it and was an understandable mess. The best thing that happened was that his body saved the lives of many others through organ donation - that's what is keeping his son sane, that and having a fantastic family on his mother's side although he did drop out of school. His Dad's family (mine) are wrecked now after decades of fighting over him.

The thing with a depressed family member is that you can't walk away, you can argue and confront, fall out and get back together but you can't walk away for ever.

At least RW's death has sent these discussions flying and some wonderful insight has been gained and shared.

The other thing is that he was regularly given different diagnoses, none of us knew what label he had been given or how to approach that. What I needed was a kind of translator who could explain what was going on in his head when he said x or felt y.

ADHD what if the help doesn't actually help?

I don't know.

I would probably retreat from them then. Mental illness wreaks too much havoc on surrounding people, if it's not responding to treatment I can't hang around and be a punching bag.

ADHD why do assume you'd be a punching bag?
My point was it's not always someone not trying to get better it's just that even after seeking help they still aren't any better. Nhs cuts make this far more likely. Do you blame those with mental illness for this?
Leaving people alone will contribute to suicide.

ADHD why do assume you'd be a punching bag?
My point was it's not always someone not trying to get better it's just that even after seeking help they still aren't any better. Nhs cuts make this far more likely. Do you blame those with mental illness for this?
Leaving people alone will contribute to suicide.

itsbetterthanabox is it ok if I reply to this too?

I have been in the situation where my husband wasn't responding to treatment at that point. I didn't blame him for this, or his mhp's, or his meds. It is what it is, there is no one or thing to blame. While I totally 100% realised that leaving him could tip him over the edge into suicide, I myself was at such a low-point because he was frankly impossible to live with for a fairly long period of time. I needed to get out, all be it (hopefully) temporarily, because my own mental and physical health was going down the pan along side his. I couldn't discuss this with him, I was too scared to.

I went with him to his therapist and laid my cards on the table, and his therapist supported me 100% and agreed I should get out, and was prepared to draw up and alternative plan to support my husband in my absence. As it turned out, it wasn't needed. Seeing me in such a state in his therapist's office, I was at the end of my tether but had maybe been protecting him from that up until that point, worked in some kind of way to snap him out of the worst of that episode, and in the weeks following he became a lot easier to live with. So I stayed and we worked it out.

We have also jointly agreed since then (well jointly with his therapist) that if the same situation arises again, I should retreat if coping with him is pulling me down too much. And we've drawn up rough "retreat plans" of different lengths of time from a day to a month. We both have lists like "in the event of xxx Mrs Slow will take xxx steps, Mr Slow will take xxx steps". All the steps include both of us or either of us, involving his mh care team immediately.

it tears at my conscience to read something like "Leaving people alone will contribute to suicide", because I know it's true and the thought scares the fucking shit out of me, but I can't be responsible for another adult's life at the expense of my own. As my husband therapist has drummed into him over the years, he has to ensure somewhat that he takes some care of me, even in his darkest moments, or one day I might not be around to care for him.

mignonette, that is one of the most informative and helpful posts I have ever read on the internet. I can see you really 'get it' from the patient and the family member's pov. Husband thought so too. Thank you!

slow I think you've been very thoughtful and respectful on this thread.

Mignonette too.

Quangle, thank you, I appreciate that.

itsbetterthanabox I think basically what slow said sums it up.

It's a fucking nightmare not easy living with someone with mental health problems. If they're not responding to treatments then, it's like there's no light at the end of the tunnel as far as supporting them until they get better. Because now you don't know if they'll ever get better.

Leaving people alone will contribute to suicide.

Suicide is a choice people make. It's not bad choice, or a good choice, just a choice. But it's incredibly naive to say if you don't stick around they'll kill themselves. You're giving an illusion of control, that if you just do this he won't kill himself. Only he can control his actions not you. Sometimes no matter how much you're "there for someone" they'll still end up committing suicide. The brain is sick, and if it's not responding to therapy treatments from professionals, just what do you think you'll be able to do?

Sometimes you have to detach and do what's best for you, and help in a way that isn't a detriment to yourself.

Slowredcar in your situation you are doing it in a way that is helpful to you both. Involving mental health team, setting out a plan. Not abandoning him. I think that is the best way to deal with it.
Unfortunately for a lot of people access to mental health treatment is limited and poor. This makes doing what you have much harder. Someone simply snapping and leaving with no plan is what causes issues.

I lost my young cousin a few months back to suicide. Can't be more specific because it will definitely make it easy identify me but it was absolutely horrendous. I think about him every day and wonder if it might have been different if he had told someone. Knowing from my own experience though I don't think it would have. He felt absolutely certain that he would never get better and there was no way out. EXACTLY how I felt at my worst. I don't think I would have held on another day if I'd known how long it would take me to feel as good as I do today. Nothing ANYONE said made me feel like not wanting to die. The closest anyone got to helping me with their help was my husband telling me how much he wished I was better. I believed him... but I still just wanted to die.

itsbetterthanabox

I have to be ultra-careful how I phrase this, as I don't want another accusation of being woefully ignorant of MH issues and insensitive and heartless to boot.

But I am more with noodles way of thinking than yours. Yes we have help in place now. But that could end tomorrow if our circumstances changed. My thinking wouldn't change. The right thing to do wouldn't change. I am not responsible for my husband not committing suicide. He is. Only he is.

I am strong enough to cope with my husband, right now. I could face a crisis tomorrow that could weaken me, leave me in a position where I need to focus on myself. I don't think the onus should ever be placed on family members not to leave their loved one if their own mental or physical well-being is at risk.

A statement like "leaving people alone will contribute to suicide", I feel (while I know it's probably right) is placing the responsibility on the wrong person. It took me a long time to accept what my husband's psychologist tried to drum into me. I have no role at all in any suicidal thoughts or plans he will have or has had. The 4 Cs were drummed into me. I don't cause it. I can't cure it. I can't control it. I can ONLY not contribute to it. I was taught to give up the very thought I can stop him committing suicide. So to agree with you would mean going against what I was taught by his health care professionals. I'm sorry.

Sorry I haven't read all the thread...
I agree that the platitudes on fb and the attitude that just telling someone is waving a magic wand and will make depression magically disappear is wrong.
But I think the 'tell someone' message is valid...
If you don't tell anyone you won't get ANY help at all - even what little there is available.
I was suicidal about 20yrs ago after a serious 'physical' illness. I didn't tell ANYONE that I was struggling mentally. I sat at home and thought and plotted. I just didn't want to do it anymore - I didn't want to feel like that anymore. I felt so awful and I really couldn't see any point in carrying on. No point in continuing to fight.

One thing that stopped me talking was once I told someone I might not be free to kill myself anymore. And also I couldn't have a tragic accident -it would obviously be suicide. And honestly the only person I was really concerned about knowing that was my elderly grandfather - in his 80s, a truly lovely gentle man who really wouldn't get it.
Everyone (friends and family) , even HCPs didn't know - in fact when it came out everyone was shocked. The mask was firmly in place. They thought I was doing really well - I was actually physically 'lucky to be alive' and they thought that was how I felt.
I don't know if she sensed something or it was just luck but my GP got it out of me after a routine appointment. I was leaving, had my hand on the door handle - relaxing my guard, mask slipping, I'd carried off the pretense. She asked me 'how I was in myself' - I turned round with a smile on my face to say 'I'm fine' and instead the words 'I want to die' came out. I got the help I needed medication, counseling etc. Not saying it was easy or quick but I really don't think I'd be alive now if she hadn't caught me off guard.
I have struggled with depression on and off every since. But I am very aware and usually can stop it before it gets too bad. (Only been back on medication once since). I don't tell anyone about the struggle. I have DC and had a friend whose mother and sister committed suicide and saw the impact on her. I don't think I could do that to my children. But I can't guarantee that. I do hope before it got that black I would 'tell someone' even with no guarantee that would help.
And as to what to say to someone - it is so hard - we are all different and depression is not a one size fits all.
I don't think anyone could have said or done anything to really help me. I do know that well into my treatment I was out with a friend and she suggested I stayed at her house. I said I couldn't, had to go home to take my anti depressants and she suggested I didn't need them. I started to tell her a little of how I felt and she was really upset, shocked, started crying. And that made me feel so much worse - what a shit person I was for upsetting my friend so much. I really was worthless. Everyone would be better off without me

Slow - thank you. I wish everybody well on this thread- my fervent hope that for all of you, it will work out and there will be mental health in your lives and that of your loved ones.

My uncle killed himself and hadn't told anyone he was depressed.

I'm sorry most people didn't help you but your DH did. If you hadn't told him you wouldn't be here now.

I'm sure my aunt would have done everything in her power to help her DH she just never got the chance.

I didn't tell my DH Ten, he knew from how I behaved and it was he who dragged me, literally, to the GP.

I am always absolutely baffled when I hear families say "we didn't know there was anything wrong" after someone commits suicide. It must happen, but I find it incredible that a person can be suffering that much and absolutely no one notices. No one is so good an actor that they can be entirely themselves when they feel that bad. My sister said that when I was depressed, even when I was making a monumental effort to be "normal" it was plainly obvious just from my eyes how I was feeling.

I explicitly told my family I was suffering and asked for help and (after telling me how much I was worrying them and that I should stop doing that) they just ignored it. If I had committed suicide I have no doubt they would have done the whole "we had no idea" bullshit.

I'm not saying your aunt ignored your uncle. But I do think people see the suffering and just hope it will go away, or get so overwhelmed with it they become paralysed and do nothing. Sometimes, it is clear a person can't be helped and the horror of that just grinds everything to a halt.

I simply find it very hard to believe that a person can fail to notice the person they live with every day is depressed.

This thread has really helped me to understand I hope a little bit more about depression. A very dear friend is suffering and I have found it so hard to deal with. I want to help but they just shut themselves away, I don't want to pester them so I just occasionally send a text and very occasionally they reply. They are in counselling and it has happened before and they have come through it in the end and I am just hoping they will again. But if they did hurt themselves I would feel incredibly guilty but reading your comment has made me realise that I shouldn't blame myself.

caiindana - I think you can cover it up more than you think. Depends on how desperately you want to keep it a secret. Like I said I thought as soon as anyone knew it would be much harder if not impossible to do it - and I was desperate to escape. I broke down completely as soon as I told the GP (reason I never complain if I am kept waiting for a GP - I was there ages - she wouldn't let me go until she was sure I was safe and everything was organised). And some of that despair was because I felt I had messed up - I had less choice, less chance of an escape - I would be 'forced' to carry on and that was a terrible prospect.
I am quite independent - self sufficient, used to looking after myself and not expecting 'support'. I wouldn't ask for help in life anyway. It was my problem and I should deal with it.
(An eg I have been unwell recently, had an hospital appt and DP was working - I asked a friend to look after my DC (school hols) -she was shocked that I would be going to the appt on my own. I wouldn't have thought of needing/asking anyone to come with me -wouldn't have entered my head.)

I was living with flatmates - who were out most of the day. I hid myself away. I guess I had my physical health problems too - mobility problems - a good excuse not to be as social as I may have been. One of my flatmates did tell me to pull myself together and get out more. (She was an unsympathetic, self absorbed bitch at the best of times)
I did stay with my family (lived hundreds of miles away) immediately after coming out of hospital but at the time I was still so ill no-one thought it odd if I was a bit 'miserable' and probably still too much in shock to think past the next dr appt...

Call

I think it is hard for laypeople to imagine but fact is some people do successfully mask the severity of their symptoms AND also others suffer a sudden catastrophic psyche crisis which makes them decide to act upon suicidal ideation. Men also present in a different way to women as do older people, younger people and children. There is no 'blanket' presentation, only broad categories of symptoms. And every human brain and psyche is unique. We aren't dealing with an easily classified set of symptoms as you would expect in other physiological conditions.

I can see you find it hard to believe but that doesn't mean it never happens and in all my years of insider experience I can vouch for the fact that it does.

Thing is though unlucky, even your flatmate who clearly had no feelings for you and didn't see you that much knew something was wrong. Equally mignonette, while I know it might be possible for no one to realise a person was severely depressed, I think it's near impossible for absolutely no one to realise something was wrong. When you have a partner who sees and talks to you every day and knows what you're like when you're at your best then I find it pretty incredible that they won't see at least that you're not quite yourself.
Heck even my couldn't-give-a-shit mother picked up that I wasn't right in the one week she was here after DD was born. She skirted around it and didn't ask directly, because she doesn't actually want to know, but she did pick it up. If anything had gone wrong she would have said she knew nothing of course.