Quick Advice DD2 refusing to go on holiday...

[fun1nthesun]

We need to leave now! dd2 has decided she isn't going (12 years old). Leaving her with relatives/friends isn't an option. She has form for sudden refusals, and in fact we lost £££ the last time she demanded to do expensive lessons and then changed her mind after we had given the money.

Any suggestions? Our holiday is ruined

(NB this is how I was advised to handle the biting by all the professionals involved. I would also use deep pressure etc techniques following the biting, which again is not something you'd do with an NT child).

Gold, my best friend has a DS with difficulties similar to your Dds. I cannot begin to describe how stressful and confusing it has been for her and her DH. They are fantastic parents, their other child has no such difficulties. It is really hard to describe how incredibly demanding and manipulative he can be but at the same time how sensitive , anxious and lacking in confidence he is too. When I spend the weekend with them I am exhausted after a few hours, I don't know how they cope.

This is VERY different to a child that is just spoiled which may or may not describe the op's Dd or may not . Impossible to tell really. Just wanted to say that I also used to think I had all the strategies until I encountered this little lad.

This sounds similar to something I would have done as a child.
We had a family holiday to the US booked, I was truly excited in the build up to the holiday, with just a niggle of fear, which I didn't speak about.

When the time came to set off, I flat refused. I was terrified if going on a plane, absolutely terrified, and it was soon after Lockerbie. But I couldn't tell anyone, I felt so scared and alone.

But, my reaction was to sit mute, with what my mum described as an 'insolent' look.

I did go to the US, I think I was just 'put' in the car. But I have never been on a plane since.

Given recent news coverage, it's just a thought.

Fair enough Goldmandra but I'm sure I'm still allowed to express an opinion and sympathy for the rest of the family.

Not that we know what the situation of the op is of course.

I'm sure I'm still allowed to express an opinion and sympathy for the rest of the family.

Of course you are

pookbob thats a very interesting post.
And a reminder of the importance of listening to children's voices.

This reported incident has disturbed many readers because it is disturbing, and it is the lack of emotion on the part of the girl which makes it so disturbing.

Would a child who was scared/anxious/insecure be sitting in her room smiling, and telling another child she had ruined the holiday, though?

it is the lack of emotion on the part of the girl which makes it so disturbing.

This was a description written by a parent who was in an enormously stressful situation and who was, understandably, feeling angry and helpless.

Not showing emotion can be a self defence mechanism when you are close to losing control those emotions or under such stress that you are unable to work out how you feel yourself. It can also be a result of not understanding how to use facial expressions and body language.

Using words like chilling and disturbing in this situation is clearly meant to portray the child as some sort of psychopath which is both ridiculous and insulting to her and her family.

Well it's also quite disturbing that a parent who has got to decide how to respond in a limited time frame decides to ask Mumsnet for advice. (The first responses you get won't necessarily be the right ones for your situation, and there's simply no time to give the backstory.) Where are the real life partners/friends/neighbours/relatives?

Sometimes actual people who are physically there and known to to the other people involved are far more useful.

The reactions of young people can seem very inappropriate, and can cause their parents a lot of distress - but this doesn't necessarily mean the young people are simply 'bad.' Before I knew that my stepson was differently wired, I used to be sure that he smiled maliciously on occasions when he was inconveniencing people and/or getting them to run round after me. It was some time before I discovered that 'inappropriate facial expressions' were part of what made him different.

Why not? Who knows what's going on.
Either way. A battle of wills is unlikely to end well.
Like with a toddler. Yes, you can move them from the table to the chair. You can take control. But you cant make them eat. You have to help them want to. If you force it.
They become increasingly resistant to eating.

SDTG I'm not a professional but yes could also be AS thing to be telling another child - inappropriate social behaviour, trying to fit in - lots of descriptions of that kind of Mean Girls stuff with AS girls eg in book I recently read Aspergers and Girls. And smiling again, inappropriate facial/emotional response. Lots of egs of this kind of response on various MN threads about AS eg laughing when someone died.

ilovesooty sympathy much appreciated. It's heartbreaking, the fall-out for the other NT DC sometimes. And then as te parent stuck in the middle of it all

There are many interesting points made on here. Lots of assumptions too.

What you say is very interesting too Pook. We don't know details of the op's planned holiday, but it strikes me that some sort of uncommunicated fear could be behind the op's dd's behaviour.

We obviously know very little of the background of this child, or the family. If OP comes back to the thread then I'm sure that she'll be amazed at many of the opinions. Whether of not she chooses to give more background and details remains to be seen.

TheRealAmanda YY to food wars with a toddler!

"Using words like chilling and disturbing in this situation is clearly meant to portray the child as some sort of psychopath which is both ridiculous and insulting to her and her family."
Quite Gold.

Last year DH had a stroke. He was sent home with the instructions to be stress free for the next month, as he was at very high risk of having another (stress free, in our house? Ha!)

We had to farm the dc out for most of that month. Ds1 had so many episodes which a family member witnessed and described as terrifying to see, and chilling, and described ds1 as a little shit, we were all at a loss as to what was going on.
We pointed out to him that he couldn't behave like this, Dh could end up extremely poorly because of this, and he sat there smirking saying he didn't care.
Only he did care, he was so terrified that he couldn't cope.

My mother had a stroke scare a few months ago. Ds behaved in exactly the same way, but luckily for DM, not in her house in front of her.

He is so predictable with this "emotionless" "chilling" behaviour now. He is not a psychopath, but a scared boy who cannot put his feelings into words.

I have had many times, under name changes, when I've asked on MN things I should have dealt with in RL, mainly because on MN, you can get a mix of replies, including helpful ones from parents who've been there and done it. In RL, all my advice tends to go down the route of force him/smack him/really tell him off (I mean properly, because you're obviously not doing it right) etc, and it is very unhelpful, and has always come from people who have children who don't have these issues at all.
It's not disturbing at all, everyone reacts in different ways when they are under pressure.

ChoosandChipsandSealingWax what I was trying to say is that you respond to the child, not to the diagnosis.
I have 2 autistic children, both very different. There is behaviour that from one, would be a sensory issue, but from the other would be anxiety. I would respond to the same behaviour differently, not because of the diagnosis, but because of the need of the child.
Its the same without a diagnosis. You could have a child without SN who had anxiety more severe than a child with SN.

Children are individuals and need to have that recognised in the way you respond to them. Some need to be pushed, others need to be lead.

Children who display big behaviour, do so because they have no other way of expressing how they feel. They either don't feel listened to or don't feel able to verbalise what is going on for them. They don't ruin things for other people for no reason. Fear is a major driving force for many children, but what you see is defiance, insolence, smirking etc, because it can be better for many people to allow other people to think they are vile, than it is to admit that they are scared. Pook made an excellent point.

Thanks for all the answers, and sorry for not getting back earlier...

So, I threatened to carry her to the car in her pjs, she didn't believe me, so I followed through and carried her out of the front door.

At this point she decided she would get dressed, although she did play up a bit.

After this, we manage to get on holiday and she was perfectly behaved all day.

She does have form for being a little badly behaved, and I had challenged her the day before for not sharing, and punished her. I think her behaviour resulted from this....

Day 2 and it's thundering pouring and windy so we are stuck inside....

Good post fav
Sorry about dh.

To answer some of the questions on here, dd2 is nt and very sociable but quite stubborn.

I posted on here because I don't really like the idea of picking a child up and putting them in the car. As it was she didn't object to being picked up and carried, and I think that it was a "show" and she did know that she would go in the end.

It was exactly like a 3 year old tantrum in some ways, and because she doens't usually behave like this, we were all quite shocked!

I hope you have a good holiday. :)

Thanks Lweji it's been ok so far after the first "problem"

Thanks for the update fun and hope you manage to enjoy the rest of your holiday.

Sorry mostwicked misunderstood you. You confused me also with the "not getting a toolbox of strategies after diagnosis" comment as after diagnosis in my area we're then sent on the NAS EarlyBird course which I would say does very much give you a toolbox (not that they necessarily work - it's still trial and error and a strategy that normally works then sometimes doesn't).

Yes agreed - modify response according to child/behaviour and yes that is the same (bigger picture) as with any child - likewise DD's issue is with anxiety and DS mainly sensory and transitions, and I handle them differently accordingly.,

Well done OP. I hope your username becomes more apt for the rest of your time away.

Do you think that she'll think about what happened at all? Will you and your DH try to bring it up at all.

In your OP you said she has form for sudden last minute refusals which have resulted in you losing money in the past, but now you say she doesn't usually behave like ths so you were quite shocked. Which is it?

Hope you enjoy the rest of your holiday but if I were you I wouldn't leave it there - I'd be discussing it with her and asking why she thinks it's acceptable to behave that way. Otherwise you risk sweeping it all under the carpet...until next time.