Quick Advice DD2 refusing to go on holiday...

[fun1nthesun]

We need to leave now! dd2 has decided she isn't going (12 years old). Leaving her with relatives/friends isn't an option. She has form for sudden refusals, and in fact we lost £££ the last time she demanded to do expensive lessons and then changed her mind after we had given the money.

Any suggestions? Our holiday is ruined

Although it immediately occurs to me that "win" is entirely the wrong terminology

Agree with mostwicked and olgaga

I have a refuser aged 11 (lots of diagnosed sn issues.)

The only thing that would work for me in this situation would be to put her in the car myself. I am tiny but still bigger than her and I occasionally have to resort to 'moving' my child myself.

Nothing else would have worked, certainly not quickly. No tactics, cajoling, bribing, calling their bluff.

Parenting a child like this is exhausting but they need to learn they are a member of the family, the world does not revolve around them and some things are non-negotiable.

Goldmandra has done some fantastic work on this thread if you have a child with SNs. However there is nothing to suggest AS from opening post.
It appears that any difficult child must have SNs of some sort, and if not then it is un diagnosed - it is not allowed that there are spoilt children who like their own way!
With the horse analogy you know your horse and if you are going to need them in a trailer you work in it weeks in advance- you don't wait until the last minute! If the child is AS ( which I doubt) you have had 12 yrs experience of what works and you use it.
I still want to know what you actually do if you have a plane/ferry to catch and you have to leave, with siblings who are terribly excited about the holiday. What do you do? Bear in mind that you have no time. Please tell me.
There is no way that I would tell the siblings the holiday was cancelled.

I would do the same Itmustbelove - a 12 year old would be difficult but I am stronger and I would get them in that car. They do not dictate what the rest of the family do- the siblings are just as important.

Could we have the alternative that takes less than 10 minutes? The plane/ ferry will not wait.

Delphinium. You seem fixed on the idea that nobody is bothered about the siblings and their holiday. I don't believe that is true.
I think all thats happened is that some posters are saying the language of "just show her who's boss. I wouldn't stand for it." Is not always helpful either in the short term or long term. Also, the tone is harsh and overly critical of the Op's parenting.
Picking her up might work, but it might not and doubt its as easy as ppl are suggesting. It might be impossible.
No mention of SN. Well, that doesn't mean they don't exist here. Its not an unreasonable suggestion. ADD for example is typically under diagnosed in girls and others have already mentioned other ANs.
Besides, even without a SN, i prefer carrot to stick. It nicer. And a bit of understanding can go a long way. What if the dc is not a 12 yo dd but a hefty 14 yo ds. Its all in the ground work.

I'm also interested in Delphinium's question. How is the immediacy of the situation to be dealt with?

Tbh. In an "emergency" and notwithstanding the longer term efforts, i would go for direct compliance- reward.
Some of the drama needed to come out of the situation. But that might have been easier said than done.
In an actual "emergency" i would have dh lift her (probably). But in a holiday situation i would struggle with that. As i said, im a fan of the carrot.
Although interestingly, nigella Lawson (who i love) once wrote that despite all her preconceived ideals she found herself in something of a cycle of "bribe- threat- bribe - threat"

I didn't think that others are not bothered about the siblings - and debate very interesting. I just want to know what you do in this last minute emergency when you have to go if you don't use force.

I would either put her in the car with the assistance of dad if necessary or more likely tbh I'd ask her "Are you sure you don't want to go last chance" and then get dad to take all her stuff out of the car and stay at home with her.

The thing is, this child has a propensity for this sort of stuff. If it was me I'd have come down on them like a ton of bricks after the first time, and then have talked to my partner/husband/her father and her and agreed a strategy for if she did it again.

And followed through. So she, he and I knew what we were going to do if she threw a strop and refused to get in the car and there was no panic and no rabbit in the headlights "quick advice what do we do". She would have known clearly the consequences and known me and her father/my partner/husband/the adults meant what we said.

It isn't the first time she's done this and it won't be the last, unless the OP sorts it out.

And yes, she might have AS, but if I had a child who was consistently not responding to normal discipline, normal rules and normal consequences to the extent that they were prepared to sit and gloat over ruining everyone's holiday, I'd have done something about it long ago. And I would have recognised, I hope, before it got to that point that she might have issues that needed addressed.

But the OP doesn't mention any AS in her statements.

She has never mentioned AS- therefore people will have it that it is undiagnosed!
I agree isthisanacidtest, apart from the fact I would not give up my holiday - not only is it unfair but it spoils it for the ones who went+ money down the drain.

I agree that positive behaviour should be rewarded, but I'm not sure that expected behaviour should be. They won't get rewarded when they're responsible adults for eg turning up at work every day, though they will if they produce exceptional work.

I did start this thread thinking. "WTF, just stick her in the car! No child of MINEwould ever behave like this." I used to be an educator and never had issues with discipline because my pupils know I wouldn't stand for it. I knew I was in charge of the room, and that meant they did too - it never occurred to me that they wouldn't do as they were told. And I worked with some problem kids, too.

But reading some of your comments made me think again. Someone up thread pointed out that a struggling 12 yo wouldn't just scream... Presumably that poster meant she might struggle and perhaps kick and bite and lash out... And it made me think. My brother and I were good kids and good teens and would never ever have been physical with our parents because even when angry we wouldn't have wanted to hurt them. And I don't have any children of my own yet (5 months pregnant). I have no idea what it would be like to have a child who doesn't have those internal restraints, either because of SN or because they were just naughty. And so really I have no idea how one would cope with it. Thank you mumsnet for making me see outside my own experience!

Why doesn't she want to go?
And what would it take for her to want to go?
Maybe there are some compromises to be made here with a bit more communication?
Coming into direct conflict wirh a 12 year old isnt a great plan imo.

"Expected" behaviour should definitely be rewarded.
The most effective strategies/ programmes use reward and praise systems for compliance and don't reserve positive reinforcements for "especially good" behaviours.
There is a common fear among many people of spoiling their children. That they should just do as they are told and that rewards should be saved for behaviour over and above compliance. It leads to a harsh approach imo. Its dogmatic and usually conterproductive.

Yy snog

I couldn't agree more with everything Goldmandra has posted. I have a 7 year old refuser - not a family holiday yet, but I can see how it would happen. We have sanctions which sometimes work but more often exacerbate the situation. Threats just makes her dig her heels in even more, whatever the consequences - in fact, the more dire the threats, the more vindicated she feels. And even at 7, I feel I shouldn't be manhandling her, though sometimes I do when I feel helpless - when she won't go to her room, for example, and I physically pick her up and take her there.

She's not spoilt, she doesn't rule the family, and she knows that these defiant episodes never end with her getting what she wants (and actually a lot of the time she doesn't "want" anything apart from to take back some control over a situation). It's so hard to deal with them. The best way is to stop it getting to that stage in the first place - to try to foster an atmosphere of mutual co-operation and teamwork, so she feels included in things and also feels like she has some control.

They have to get in the car NOW - it is too late for all the communication and compromises- that was for the last 6 or so weeks.
It is what would you do if you have a rigid timetable to meet and 10 mins at the very most.

But what do you do at the last minute if she ignores all that, FindoGask?

I don't know, Delphinium! I read the OP in horror because I can so easily imagine something similar happening with us. I'm really posting to say that these sorts of episodes aren't indicative of a child being "a manipulative little wretch who needs to be squished", to quote an earlier poster.

I have read it all, taken it all on board, realised that it is extremely difficult and force isn't the way of handling it, but I still don't understand what you would do at the last minute except force or abandon the holiday. I don't think there is one at the last minute which is why I keep asking- happy to be proved wrong.
I would go by force because the child is part of a family and they don't revolve around one member.
I assume OP used the force as she was being carried to the car and hasn't been heard of since.

If AS I imagine that you can put in all the ground work and they can still refuse at the last minute- as a horse can, following that analogy.

Yes I resort to force when I have to be somewhere at a certain time.

My dd often sabotages good experiences. I often get this on a planned day out that everyone is excited about. In fact the bigger the occasion and the more fuss that is made leading up to it, the more likely she is to sabotage it for herself eg refuse to move, refuse to put shoes on, flood the bathroom just as we are leaving.

In her case the reasons are very complex. It is about knowing and understanding your own child.

Agree Findo.

When ds1 started behaving like this, we went along with the naughty child scenario, any last minute defiance and he was carried to the car. He was small enough to do that then.

He's too big to do that now, so we have to work hard to make sure we don't get to that point.
Like Findo says, it's about co-operation. We gently manipulate the situation so ds feels more in control, we need to do this for ds2 too.

Had Dh and I not been open minded enough to spot this about ds, we would now be at the point where he was regularly refusing and spoiling every family outing or event.

ASD traits are human traits. You don't have to actually have ASD to have these struggles and insecurities. The OP's dd probably doesn't have SN, but until the op starts tackling this differently, she is probably going to see this behaviour more and more.

Children aren't all identical blank canvases, waiting to either be made wonderful or ruined by their parents. They are born with different personalities, and us parents have to work out how to get the best out of them, how to let them get the best out of themselves. If you don't have a sunny, malleable child, chances are it's nature, not nurture.

Very true. I had a son who had tantrums very late on. I knew him well and could generally deflect them. It is what you do if you don't manage it , and you have inflexible minutes to spare, that interests me.
However- I am off out for the day so will stop sounding like a broken record!
Is there an answer between force and not going- given 10 mins at absolute outside?