Quick Advice DD2 refusing to go on holiday...

[fun1nthesun]

We need to leave now! dd2 has decided she isn't going (12 years old). Leaving her with relatives/friends isn't an option. She has form for sudden refusals, and in fact we lost £££ the last time she demanded to do expensive lessons and then changed her mind after we had given the money.

Any suggestions? Our holiday is ruined

Having been in a similar situation, as mentioned about 100 miles upthread, it is the time constraint that gets you panicking. My DD had actually chosen the holiday we were going on so I was gobsmacked when she airily said she wasn't going.

If OP does come back and reads this thread - which will probably be quite a shock to her I should think - I would add that as a direct result of my teen DDs last minute holiday refusal shenanigans, I told her I would never book a family holiday with her again, so she is now excluded unless she pays her own way.

I did not want to take the risk of paying out again for a holiday and have her smugly saying no, she didn't really fancy it now as we set off for the airport.

I do think OP needs to sit down and work out some serious consequences for her DDs behaviour when they get back.

Delphiniums I'm not sure that there is anything else in that situation, and that it's probably too late for much else. I agree that I would try force if possible, that the problem of the timeframe is what makes it difficult, and that abandoning the holiday (even just me and the DD) would be only my absolutely very last resort. I also agree with you, 5tratters and others that the parent needs to stay the parent, and the child needs boundaries.

However, with respect I disagree that there is no evidence of AS, and that just because the OP doesn't mention it, it definitely isn't a possibility/consideration. Most girls with AS are diagnosed much later (that kind of age is common), often only after behaviour comes to a head, or secondary mental issues come up. A lot of PP with experience of AS refusers have been saying that this does resonate with them, and that physical force isn't always possible, and even with a lot of preparation and strategies, a situation like this could still happen and not be immediately resolvable.

That said, OP has not given us enough info - it equally could be NT child out of hand, Queen Bee, etc or having a hormonal moment, and I think all the talk about how an AS child is handled in this kind of situation is going off topic a little; I parent my AS DC differently to my NT DC. Though as Fav says, even if she's not AS, we all have spectrum traits and handling this type of situation accordingly can help.

I like the horse analogy either way. Looking for the underlying reason, sorting that out, remaining outwardly calm, defusing it, and not escalating it to a battle of wills. I haven't yet parented a teen, so very interested to read other posters suggestions and advice here.

I don't think there's a horse rider on the planet hasn't used a crop at least once.

To just continue the analogy.

But the OP seems to be away on holiday so I hope all is going well and I am away to get on with my day

I think one option might be to - apparently - concede.

It would be possible to say, 'Yes you do have the power to damage the family's planned holiday. You can do this by continuing to refuse to go at the last minute - when no other plans have been made for you to stay with friends or relatives so one parent has to stay at home with you. (Legally, we'd be guilty of neglect if we left you alone at home.'

'Alternatively you can opt - if we choose to manhandle you into the car - to do everything you can to make the holiday miserable.

'The question would be why do you want to use this power? What will be in it for you - in the short term and further ahead? Why are you so angry with us?

'What I'd like you to do is to think about this and - later on - talk to us about it.

'You already have the power to talk about your wishes and feelings in advance of any plan that will involve you. We care about those wishes and feelings and want not just to listen, but to do something to accommodate them.'

OP, please update when possible! Assuming your DD has no SN then I think it's fine to withdraw all privileges to teach the lesson they are just a tiny cog in a big wheel.

If SN, then you need long term strategies to counter this to avoid the same happening in future.

It is - just - possible to control a 12 year old by force. Manhandling a person of this age into a car is possible though it might take two adults. It would probably be quite distressing for a younger sibling to witness, and could also leave parents open to investigation by Social Services if a complaint were made.

You can (attempt to) ground people. You can withdraw money and privileges. But I think it's worth asking what this is likely to achieve in the longer term.

I had a very controlling mother and father. So as a 12 year old and teenager I was told that particular friends could not visit the house, because their more informal, casual behaviour constituted 'rudeness'. (All my friends except one were judged to be rude, and the 'polite' one I didn't like that much.) If my behaviour was judged to have fallen short, pocket money was withheld. I was told that I could only go out and see friends in the evening on Fridays and Saturdays. The control even extended to when I was allowed to start university. I was told that if I persisted in my stated wish to do a year's voluntary work before starting my degree that the parental contribution towards my studies wouldn't be paid.

So I suppose my parents felt that they had correctly succeeded in showing me who was boss. Both believe that they were good parents. However, their behaviour made me very unhappy and made me rebel and take risks. I began to stay out late. I did alcohol and drugs. I had unprotected sex. And to this day I dislike both my parents.

Marianne, I think your last paragraph sums up the short term gain vs the long term loss in that style of my way or the highway parenting.

Enjoyingmycoffee. Have you read any posts other than the op?
How awful that you'd happily announce that a 12 yr old has a rather nasty personality

You don't know at all that this is a result of weak and inconsistent parenting.
In fact, loads of posters have shared stories of their dc behaving in the same way because of underlying issues (and not necessarily SN)

A 12 yr old is still very much a child. Behaviour like the dd has shown will happen for a reason, and not because the dd wants to wreck a family holiday. There will be something behind this behaviour.

The gleeful smieking delight in ruining a family holiday? At 12 years old.

I stand by my opinion that is a nasty personality trait.

I would try try "bribery" (what i would call a reward) before force.
But it would depend on the situation,

Delphinium, you and several other posters have come on this thread saying that the OP just needs to put her foot and and make it non negotiable.

You need to understand that there are times when that attitude simply does not work. You can tell a 12 year old that something is non negotiable and dole out sanctions until you are blue in the face but there are some children on some occasions for whom that will make no difference.

12 years old is around the age at which even two healthy adults cannot safely force them into the car. If this cannot be done, there is no point in saying you're not going to spoil everyone else's holiday. It doesn't get the child into the car!

Your implication all the way through is that the OP was failing to tell the child to just do as she was told or be firm enough. Before you tell people this you need to understand that your approach would not always work and sometimes, trying to use it would do more harm than good. You do not have all the answers.

If you have tried all of your usual rewards and sanctions and the child is too big to safely manhandle into the car, you would have no choice but to wait until the child was willing to cooperate. The best way to make that happen would be to look for the reasons behind the behaviour and try to solve any problems.

If, while waiting, you miss a plane, there is nothing you can do. Shit happens and you have to deal with it.

Missing a plane and a holiday would be awful for all concerned but saying that you simply wouldn't allow it to happen implies that those for whom it does happen are choosing to allow it. Sometimes it happens whether you choose it or not. Sometimes children feel so strongly that the parent's will cannot simply prevail because they said so or because they cannot imagine accepting the alternative.

You are clearly lucky enough not to have had to deal with this kind of situation. You can put it down to your wonderful parenting skills or your determination not to give in if you choose. I and others on this thread have seen enough to know that there is a lot more to it than that. I hope you never have to find this out the hard way. It is often a very distressing experience for all concerned.

ASD traits are human traits. You don't have to actually have ASD to have these struggles and insecurities.

This is a really important point. There seems to be a notion that you treat the behaviour of a child with SN, completely differently to a child without. That is just rubbish. Children with SN need more consideration and may have greater needs, but the same behaviour management strategies apply to all kids. Feelings drive behaviour. All kids have the same feelings that drive that behaviour. You don't get a whole bunch of different strategies to manage behaviour when you have a diagnosis. Parents of children with SN often become better at managing difficult behaviour, simply because they have to be.

To the PP who asked what you do when you only have 10 minutes and the child is refusing, you back off. You give the child a moment to think and to breathe. You stop pressuring them. You ask them how they are feeling or you tell them how it seems they might be feeling - you seem overwhelmed/scared/lost/confused. This shows them that you are trying to see what it is like for them. When they have had a moment to express how they feel, you might just be able to get them moving again.

Why would any child WANT to ruin things for other people. There has to be something in it for them.

Enjoying - my 13 yr old ds behaves like this, but only when he is extremely anxious about something.
It is not a nasty personality trait, it is a way to communicate just how crap he is feeling about something, probably because he doesn't have the skills to say that he's scared/worried/nervous (but he does not have SN)

All behaviour in children is communication.

Luckily for ds, he has parents who are trying hard to understand this, rather than write him off as nasty. We are not weak, inconsistent parents by the way, but because of our dc's difficulties in certain areas, parenting is more difficult than for those with easier dc.
Try being compassionate instead of judgemental.

Also. I have been in a similar situation with a drama queen 12 yo.
I was taking my DNs on holiday and the eldest refused to come.
It was stressful and i was so tempted to just "put my foot down" and "make her" get in the car.
Luckily sense took over and i managed to give her some space and she and her mum talked and her mum listened and she was happy to come. I could have put her in the car but i think it would have marred the trip.

Again Goldmandra excellent post.
Sometimes you will all just have to deal with the consequences. Sometimes you can't make things happen.

I think there will be an update when they are back. The girl is obviously in the car one way or another and they are on holiday. I just hope the little madam isn't spoiling it for them. I just hope there will be sanctions if she tries any nonsense while they are away.
Sometimes you have to be as tough as you can be short of abuse. If a child is 'gleefully' spoiling things for her family then the 'glee' needs to be removed from the situation. This 12 year old is being naughty and manipulative just as though she were 5 years old. If she were mine she would be going on the holiday if at all possible but if I had to stay with her there would be no privileges or outings while we were at home, no access to technology and no visits too or from friends. She'd be in her room from 8.30 every night too.

If there is no choice according to Goldmandra but to wait until the child Co operates I feel deeply sorry for the other members of the family missing their holiday, particularly younger siblings.

There seems to be a notion that you treat the behaviour of a child with SN, completely differently to a child without. That is just rubbish.

MostWicked that is rather a sweeping generalisation, and also incorrect. Eg I allowed my AS DS2 to bite me, and did not react. I would never have allowed repeated biting by my NT DC. But if DS2 got to that stage, that was how he communicated and reacting emotionally would have escalated an already difficult situation and made him more likely to perpetuate the behaviour. That said, I have let him know it's unacceptable, and he never does it now. But, at the time, I handled it very differently.

Anyway, that's a digression. I do agree with your general point (Fav speaks alot of sense) and about the longer term consequences of the my-way-or-the-highway approach.

If there is no choice according to Goldmandra but to wait until the child Co operates I feel deeply sorry for the other members of the family missing their holiday, particularly younger siblings.

Nowhere near as sorry as you do when you are the parent experiencing it first hand.