To wonder if this is for real, and if so, what moron came up with it?! **Trigger warning**

[StoneTheFlamingCrows]

One in three reported rapes happen when the victim has been drinking

If this link is true I am ashamed to work for the nhs.

I think rape has been used here because the campaigners believe it will resonate with women. It is far more emotive than saying mugging or assault.
I understand what is being said here but agree that it is wrong to place all the emphasis on women to avoid being raped (with the implication of "you should've known better" if the worst did happen). There are far fewer campaigns out there talking about why a minority of men fail to understand the word no.
I think it would be valuable to try to change the culture. This is the tip of the iceberg. I despair at pop videos showing women as objects, not to be taken seriously, for instance. Songs about bitches and hoes. What kind of society supports its women being degraded like that?
Nonetheless alcohol is bad news. Getting wasted leaves you vulnerable in many ways regardless of gender. It's all well and good saying "well people should be able to get wasted and be safe from harm". We live in the real world. Even without the danger of harm from another there is danger of injury. Yet our culture says it's all a big laugh. Of course, no one will challenge this. The alcohol industry is huge and influential.

thecageisfull Personally I feel completely powerless to stop rape, except from the pov of educating my sons.

And that's the only way we ever will stop rape, so you have made a valuable contribution already. It is the best that we, as ordinary people, can do, and it's brilliant!

Women are advised not to get into the car of an unlicensed taxi drivers, because there is an increased risk of attack. Warning women about that fact doesn't blame them for any attacks they suffered, but it has helped keep a lot of women safe, because by knowing that important risk factor, they can avoid putting themselves in a position where they are at a significantly greater risk of being raped. Harping on about more women getting raped by someone they know, and telling men not to rape, may well be true, but is of no help to a woman looking for a taxi home.

Unless you meet John Worboys, he was a licensed cab driver, and he raped, raped and raped some more. Women who made complaints against were not believed because they had been drinking, he was a licensed cab driver and well.... women lie, innit.

As someone pointed out on the other thread, the poster is telling you that 2 out of 3 rapes happen when the victim is sober. Surely the message is therefore that you are safer when you are drunk as only 1 in 3 rape victims have been drinking?

In all seriousness, it's a daft poster. As an anti-rape poster, it is useless (take home message: NEVER drink anything). As an anti drink poster it is offensive. The main reasons not to drink have little or nothing to do with not being raped.

I see Penguin pretty much answered the questions the way I would, so I won't repeat.

I'm not disgusted at the poster, but it is victim blaming and it doesn't even attempt to do what it purports to do.

I have four DC, three are at Uni and one is finishing her ALevels. I hear all sorts of shocking stories about excessive and reckless drinking.

One of my sons flatmates has ended up in bed with a stranger with no recollection of the night before. He has done this SEVERAL times . The same boy has ended up in hospital having been attacked. He thinks his drink had been spiked and had no memory of what had happened the night before.

My other sons (lovely, intelligent) ex- girlfriend would binge drink on vodka and have absolutely no recollection of what she had been up to. Fortunately my son is teatotal but what if he was a binge drinker too? The repucussions could be beyond awful.

I have always told my DC that binge drinking is stupid and dangerous and that I would think they were irresponsible if they binge drank.
I tell this to my girls and my boys.

Being really really drunk obviously makes you more vulnerable to all sorts of bad things. Everyone should be told not to do it.

Being really really drunk obviously makes you more vulnerable to all sorts of bad things. Everyone should be told not to do it.

Of course they should, binge drinking is daft and has serious health repercussions. It shouldn't be about not getting yourself raped though.

2 out of 3 rapes occur when a woman has not been drinking.

Anyone for a

It's for your safety ladies, who's going to join me?

On a serious note:

Fucking ludicrous, victim blaming bullshit and sadly money spent on an ad campaign that could have been put to much better use in rape awareness.

"The only way someone can be raped is if they happen to be in the immediate vicinity of a rapist who wants to rape them. "

AND if the rapist has the opportunity to do so. Surely this is just about reducing certain opportunities. No, it will not prevent all rapes but it may prevent some.

It makes sense to limit risks, that's not victim blaming.

My house shouldn't be burgled because people shouldn't burgle. My house has very good locks, I shut windows when I go out and have CCTV.

I shouldn't have to drive defensively or wear a seatbelt because everyone knows the rules of the road and I'm a skilled driver.

Likewise, it makes sense to teach people what increases risks and how to decrease them.

In my case i wasn't drinking, I certainly couldn't have prevented my situation, however I urge everyone to limit their risks to levels they find acceptable.

I agree with posters who have said it is a good idea to warn people that being incapacitated through alcohol can leave you vulnerable to theft, attack (including rape), accidents and illness.

But I think the advert is victim blaming.

Firstly: if 1:3 rapes occurs when the victim has been drinking. It seems safer to get pissed tbh. As that means that 2:3 occur when the victim has not been drinking.

Secondly: it shows a picture of a woman, clearly out on the lash and looking distressed, so the strap line: "... When the victim has been drinking" doesn't really cut the mustard. I have been drinking tonight. I have almost finished a whole glass of chablis. The message from this poster could be "be careful, don't go out and get so fucking pissed you don't know where you are" but the words are saying "women: don't drink unless you want to risk being raped"

Thirdly: yes, there needs to be more education of men and sanctions on their behaviour. The advert showing the young man watching himself "become a rapist" was interesting imho.

By all means, teach ppl how to protect themselves.
But i dont believe this does that.

Oh yes, and what penguin said.

Oh x posts

What a load of codswallop PenguinHatachedAnEgg Political Correctness at the expense of womens safety - whatever next!

Mitchey - In what way is it codswallop? In what way is that poster helping women's safety? And in what way is it political correctness?

This is a poster which just states that 1/3 of rape victims had been drinking. It doesn't give women any information on their own safety. If you believe that avoiding alcohol has anything to do with materially reducing your risk of rape, you are really rather simplistic. Of course it's not wise to get plastered. For all sorts of reasons in terms of health and making yourself vulnerable. That applies to both sexes. Referencing alcohol consumption (and implying you shouldn't) simply doesn't tell women anything helpful and is patronising and victim blaming.

Also bear in mind that women who have drunk alcohol stand a good chance of having recently spent time with men who have drunk alcohol. Causation, or merely correlation with being with the attacker in a social setting?

Your statement upthread that "What they're saying (as if you don't know) is that that 'one' 'out of the three' rapes could have maybe been prevented if the women wasn't drunk. I'd love to have one out of every three rapes prevented wouldn't you" is codswallop. The poster doesn't imply that 1/3 rapes could be prevented. It just says that the women had consumed alcohol. How many of those women maybe had two glasses of wine on a date and were then raped when they said no to sex back at their flat? You really think that that scenario would have gone differently if they had drunk soda water? The statistic is very, very, very far from implying that 1/3 rape victims were drunk to the point of making themselves vulnerable to an opportunistic stranger rape. You are just clinging to the stereotype of a rape victim as someone who gets incredibly drunk and attacked in an alley (as portrayed in the ridiculous poster).

Agree with everything Penguin just said. Saying that the majority of rapists are well known to the victims isn't political correctness. Focussing on the minority of stranger rapes just makes women feel unsafe in public, and ignores where the real risks lie. Reducing the risk of rape means addressing societal structures which support dismissive attitudes to women, feelings of entitlement etc. This dark alley stuff is a dangerous red herring.

Thank you EElisaveta. Well said.

I also think the burglary analogy doesn't help - going out for a few drinks is not leaving yourself open to crime like going out leaving the front door wide open. The latter is ignoring sensible crime prevention precautions, the former is living a normal life in a way a man would not consider twice.

A better comparison would be an advert campaign saying 90% of male mugging victims had cash and a mobile phone on them when attacked. If a man is mugged, does anyone suggest he has some responsibility for being out in the evening, wearing his watch and carrying his wallet? Do people tell their sons to get cheap trainers fot public places because wearing expensive ones is asking for it?

I'll answer that - no, they don't. Even though the risk of being victim of robbery as a young man is massively higher than the risk of stranger rape. But saying those things would diminish the responsibility of the mugger and constitute victim blaming.

EE I don't know where you live, but around my way there are lots of posters advising against showing phones etc in public.

You can call it victim blaming if you like, but to my mind anything that you can reasonably do to reduce the risk of being a crime victim is worth it - whether that crime is having a bag snatched or being physically attacked.

Being alert at all times is one of those reasonable things, and certainly when I've had a few drinks I become less alert - that's why I can't drive home.

You should be able to lie in a dark alley naked and still not get raped.

Anything you can do to reduce being a victim of a crime is worth it Sally?

So, what if the poster said that 1/3 of rape victims had been alone with a man who was not a spouse or family member before the attack (I don't know if that is accurate, but given that a large number of attacks are by spouses or family members, plus a few attacks by strangers, it is probably low if anything). Would it then be appropriate to say that women shouldn't be alone with anyone who isn't a family member or spouse? Or is that inappropriately curtailing women's freedoms? Why is implying women shouldn't drink (not shouldn't get drunk. The statistic relates to any alcohol) not curtailing their freedoms if so?

And bear in mind that the number of rapes that the 'don't drink' advice is likely to impact is minimal at best. The reason we have advertising campaigns against speeding and drink driving is because they are very likely to result in serious accidents. In terms of relevance, this is like planning an advertising campaign to reduce serious road accidents and deciding that you will make the focus of your campaign indicating at roadabouts. Wouldn't it be odd if every single campaign against road deaths seemed to focus on indicating at roundabouts? Yes, a few serious accidents are caused by that, but there is a reason we spend our money on the major ones. (And, of course, the analogy only relates to that point. The non-indicator has broken a rule of the road, having a pint isn't illegal or even ill advised).

I also think the burglary analogy doesn't help - going out for a few drinks is not leaving yourself open to crime like going out leaving the front door wide open. The latter is ignoring sensible crime prevention precautions, the former is living a normal life in a way a man would not consider twice.

^^ this

Also, my vagina is not a wallet. I can't tuck it away in an inside pocket or push it under the passenger seat of my car or leave it at home in a drawer. I can't use a shabby one I don't mind getting nicked on a night out and I can't pretend I don't have one when pressed. If my vagina is stolen, nobody will ask me if I told the thief explicitly that they weren't to take it. Wallets belong to their owners as a matter of course, nobody questions who is in the wrong when one person takes one belonging to another. Nobody asks 'Did you tell him not to steal your wallet?'.
There isn't a damn thing I can do to disguise the fact that I am a woman, whatever precautions I take. I can't 'lock the door'.

You should be able to lie in a dark alley naked and still not get raped.
Absolutely right! You should certainly be able to do that. But until it becomes possible, I for one will avoid doing it.

Anything you can do to reduce being a victim of a crime is worth it Sally?
You failed there Penguin. :(
You deliberately omitted the critical word when quoting me. I twice said anything reasonable.

Reasonable to me is not getting too drunk to look after myself. Leaving my much-loved DP on the off-chance that he might one day turn into a rapist would unreasonable.

Your move.

You said anything you can reasonably do, which I took to mean, in the context you used it, practicably do. If you simply meant you judged whether a restriction was reasonable for other people, you are placing a value judgement on whether the behaviour was 'worth it', which is exactly the issue we are raising.

Reasonable to you personally is not getting so drunk you can't look after yourself? I agree. Getting so drunk you can't look after yourself is pretty stupid.

Good advice: Please don't get so drunk that you can't look after yourself. You stand a much higher chance of losing your wallet, being locked out of your house, getting mugged or into a fight, or even getting raped by a stranger or (as happened to someone from my school) deciding you can swim the dock and drowning.

Bad advice: to reduce your risk of rape, don't drink (again, note that the poster just talks about consuming alcohol. Not being shit faced).

See the difference?

Also, I very specifically didn't talk about spouses (by which I intended to include live in partners, sorry if that wasn't clear) and family members. I was saying: if it is reasonable to tell women they shouldn't drink at all to reduce rape, is it reasonable to say that they shouldn't be alone with men outside these groups? What about other limits. Should we tell women not to use the bus at night? Or not to use licensed cabs (remember John Warbouys (sp?))? If we focus our efforts on telling women "rape victims have done X beforehand" without any attempt to understand correlation vs, caustion and without any attempt to think about what percentage of attacks it might help, are we helping women, or blaming victims?