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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

747 replies

DikTrom · 02/08/2014 11:57

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

OP posts:
Softlysoftlycatchymonkey · 11/08/2014 22:57

*to

DownByTheRiverside · 11/08/2014 23:00

Softly, many might well see themselves as equal but different and find your view simplistic.
When I had DD and returned to work, a number of the mothers of children that I taught were outraged at what they saw as my exploitation and cross with my OH, because he had made me go out to work when I should be at home with my baby. They hugged me and were sorry for me and were very supportive if I wanted my OH beaten up to teach him respect for motherhood. Smile

MistressMia · 11/08/2014 23:05

greeneggs my posts on this thread have not been as part of a crusade to stop you or other muslims believing in Islam, but rather as part of a discussion and counter argument against some of the assertions you have made.

The topic is as you rightly say about growing Islamic extremism. You appear still to be refuting this based on your posts below and furthermore maintaing the line that any extremism is marginal and nothing to do with Islam / taken out of context / wrongly interpreted / insert usual muslim excuses.

greeneggsandjam Sun 03-Aug-14 00:08:49
Firstly, the group of people marching up the street shouting 'British Police go to hell' and the likes were a very small amount of people all things considered. I think they were part of al muhajirun but I could be wrong. They are a fairly extreme group.

greeneggsandjam Sun 03-Aug-14 09:39:51
However, they have been around for a fair while, so to say extremism is on the rise is inaccurate in my opinion.

greeneggsandjam Mon 04-Aug-14 19:46:32
Islam requires you to want death for unbelievers ..... really Greengrow?? I think not. You appear to be taking things out of context.

greeneggsandjam Thu 07-Aug-14 00:34:22
With regards to the minority group stuck at the top of a mountain, no normal Muslim/human being would wish that upon anyone. Unfortunately there are lots of people who consider themselves to be Muslim but may not have much knowledge or may have been brought up surrounded by teachers with extreme views. Actually, you can look at lots of so called Muslims here in this country who really don't have the first idea about Islam and who really are quite an embarrassment

^greeneggsandjam Mon 11-Aug-14 08:50:16
You will always get silly preachers shouting this kind of stuff. They also shout lots more rubbish. It doesn't means its totally right.

The point I have been trying to make is that your arguments are misleading and have no basis. The sources and links I have supplied have all been with a view to showing that it is mainstream scripture i.e. the Quran, Hadiths, Sunnah etc that is the source of the the extremism. The very same verses and chapters that made me turn against the religion are the ones that are the rallying call for increasing number of jihadists. I am simply putting forward the opposing view to that promulgated by muslims such as yourselves (and my friends and family) that 'this is nothing to do with Islam'.

wrt 'warlord':

greeneggsandjam Sun 10-Aug-14 09:01:33
If you want to engage in friendly dialogue with Muslims Stressing, it might be a good idea to stop saying things like 'warlord Mohammed'.

My links were to once again challenge your indirect assertion that the terminology of 'warlord' was wrong. Fair enough you don't have the knowledge to argue the case one way or the other, however the information I linked to showed that indeed there is a valid argument for calling him as such. ......Why does this matter ? The extremists take inspiration from 'the warlord Mohammed' for their current Jihad. They acknowledge his history, methods and ruthlessness and strive to emulate him. The whole situation is just so F%*@^D Up that I can no longer just let you and other muslims (in denial) protestations go unchallenged.

I have nothing against you and fair play to you for coming back to answer your critics. Your myopia frustrates me, as does that of the majority of my family and muslim friends. However I'm sure you like the majority of muslims wish nobody any ill will, despite what Islam tells you. Unfortunately the same does not hold true for a growing proportion of muslims, who may be relatively small in percentage terms but who nonetheless are reeking untold misery on those in their path and whose actions are now beginning to affect non-muslims perceptions of decent people like you.

My motivation in challenging and putting forth the opposing view is really because I do see Islam as being the problem in driving the extremism we are currently witnessing. We are now into the 2nd or 3rd decade of radical preaching and I see increasing numbers of muslims becoming extreme or orthodox in their views. In order to solve a problem one has to first of all acknowledge honestly the roots of it.

greeneggsandjam · 11/08/2014 23:11

I'm not blindly following anything, I put a great deal of though into it actually.

Downbytheriverside I don't live a 1950s housewife life or a Stepford wife life either.

greeneggsandjam · 11/08/2014 23:12

Softlysoftly, the things you think this Dr has 'done' for women are things that are going against Islam. He isn't doing anything for women. He's just making up his own rules. I suspect people rather like him because 'he's Muslim but he's like one of us'.

greeneggsandjam · 11/08/2014 23:18

Mistress Mia, perhaps I could say the same thing to you with regards to myopia :) Well, I guess we will find out on the day of judgement (or not) who was right.

If I though it was all a load of nonsense and I didn't agree with Islam I would just leave it now, no one has a gun at my head. I'm not going to enter into any further discussions here, not due to fear of not knowing what to say but I feel that whatever I say I will get someone telling me that the life I have chosen is unfair on women etc etc. I'm telling you I'm happy but still it isn't being accepted. I feel like its just going to go round and round in circles.

Good luck to the rest of you in whatever way this discussion continues.

nicename · 11/08/2014 23:21

Aren't the extremists making up their own rules too?

Montegomongoose · 11/08/2014 23:23

MistressMia as ever, an intelligently and thoughtfully-writen post.

It would be good to see more female olympic sportswomen from Saudi. It will happen bit by bit as they see the error of their ways and how wrong they have interpreted what they thought was the word of God

As they do not record the births and deaths of women in SA or allow them to vote, drive or even leave their homes without the accompaniment of a male relative, it's doubtful that they will be encouraged to compete at sports at all, never mind internationally, under the current regime.

Sarah Attar has spent very little time in the Kingdom.

MistressMia · 11/08/2014 23:41

greeneggs if you and my mother are both right, then following the Day of Judgement when I am in Jahanam will you be watching while I undergo the following ?

“As for those who reject Our Signs, We will roast them in a Fire. Every time their skins are burned off, We will replace them with new skins so that they can taste the punishment. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise.” (4:56)

“As for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured over their heads, melting that which is in their bellies and their skins too, and for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape they are driven back therein and (it will be said): Taste the doom of burning.” (22: 19-22)

How can any decent person want anybody to undergo such barbarity ? Is there really much difference between you and the extremists if you can condone such actions ?

My mother was brought up in a restricted society with limited education and external exposure and opportunities to question anything or develop critical thinking but you ????????????????

hiddenhome · 12/08/2014 00:08

"Gods always behave like the people who created them"
-- Zora Neale Hurston

DownByTheRiverside · 12/08/2014 07:54

'Downbytheriverside I don't live a 1950s housewife life or a Stepford wife life either.'

No, my friends are Confused

Softlysoftlycatchymonkey · 12/08/2014 08:00

down but in this century and this country that doesn't apply. Those women were clearly misguided, brainwashed ect. In this day and age there is no place for a train of thought like that - it backwards.

green basically Islam stands for the oppression of woman. I don't think the dr is making up his own rules, I think it shows he is more advanced in his thinking that all the other preachers who want to keep females firmly in their place. I think it's perfectly fine for you to choose this life but it's massively unfair for you to instill this life on your kids, females being oppressed had no place in this society. Maybe this is why western people find the differences to much as as we moved in from that archaic thinking last century.

BornFreeButinChains · 12/08/2014 09:25
  • I think it shows he is more advanced in his thinking that all the other preachers who want to keep females firmly in their place. I think it's perfectly fine for you to choose this life but it's massively unfair for you to instill this life on your kids, females being oppressed had no place in this society

He is a progressive enlightened man who is fighting for womens rights in islam and fought apartheid in SA too....Amazing man whose interpretation of Islam fits in well with all the values we espouse in this country.

BornFreeButinChains · 12/08/2014 09:31
  • greeneggsandjam Mon 11-Aug-14 22:40:58

Yes! He thinks many things don't seem necessary, and yet he remains devoted to his faith.

Saying just because they have not been done before is why they shouldn't be done now....is a rubbish argument.

Not so long ago women were not given the vote in the UK. One can imagine the old crusties in Parliament " but dear boy, they were not given vote before why now?".

No point engaging.

Greengrow · 12/08/2014 09:51

They are very difficult issues in all religions. If you think the word of your supposed God is true 5000 years ago, 2000 or whatever and now then it cannot change (some argue - that would include fundamentalist of all religions) and anyon who does not follow those rules is wrong.

I expect some Muslims on here have mortgages which are not Sharia compliant but there has been a huge movement to Sharia compliant lending. I see that as the silly side of religion. In fact Jesus was appalled at the 10,000 rules or whatever number the Jews had which were just so complex and pointless and said be done with those just love everyone which was pretty sensible. I am sure the Prophet if he exists would think much the same about rules over when people eat, what they wear and if they can "get round" the no interest rule by some other kind of financial product which is interest in all but name. My grandmother switching on lights in the 1930s for her Jewish neighbours on the Sabbath thought the same - surely if turning on the light is wrong getting a neighbour to do it for you is wrong?

What the C of E has done and most non fundamentalist branches of most religions is move with the times. Obviously not far enough as they cannot even have a female Archbishop so are very sexist. Now there are those in the C of E who feel it is a fundamental breach of the basics of their religion to have a woman as vicar.

So I suppose the issue many of us have with Islam is not just sexism which is very unfair on girls (see posts about Saudi above) but also even worse all the killings done in the name of God many of which are perpetrated by Muslims at the moment. We do not have fundamentalist religious groups made up of Christian white Australians or Canadians bombing people in their country. It all seems to be concentrated in Muslim states although I am not forgetting places like North Korea where hundreds of thousands are in prison camps and that is not connected to religion.

Anyway most atheists are more than happy to tolerate moderate religious people in the UK as long as we remain free to seek to persuade them to drop their religion and treat women fairly, but no killing.

BornFreeButinChains · 12/08/2014 10:23

Anyway most atheists are more than happy to tolerate moderate religious people in the UK as long as we remain free to seek to persuade them to drop their religion and treat women fairly, but no killing

I am atheist and have no wish to persuade anyone to drop their religion...I just don't like seeing any religion twisted to say its ok to harm and kill people.

BornFreeButinChains · 12/08/2014 10:24

When I was at school one particular girl was deeply un happy and having her bed checked for signs of a period starting, was unable to answer front door in case it was a man ...

does this still go on>?

MistressMia · 12/08/2014 10:52

greeneggs while you waft around in your hijab/ jilbab / burqa endorsing Islamic misogyny but fully protected from its worst effects by British Law, spare a thought for your muslim sisters, who unfortunately don't have the same protection, living as they have to under Islamic Sharia law.

Women such as those in Afghanistan, who's clerics have successfully argued that they have divine right to beat their wives as it has been mandated so in the Quran.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/04/afghanistan-law-victims-violence-women

edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/09/23/afghanistan.women.abuse/index.html?iref=24hours

Quran Verse 4:34 : Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great

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Or those in Saudi & Yemen where womens testimony is half that of a mans:

www.unicef.org/gender/files/Yemen-Gender-Eqaulity-Profile-2011.pdf

"According to Yemen’s constitution, Shari’a (Islamic law) is the source of all legislation. Many laws contain provisions that discriminate against women, including the personal status law, the penal code, the citizenship law and the evidence law. In front of the court, a woman is not considered a full person; in some cases a woman’s testimony is not accepted at all (e.g. in cases of adultery and retribution), and in some other cases a woman’s testimony will be worth half of that of a man."

Al-Qur’an 2:282 "Oh! ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligation in a fixed period of time reduce them to writing and get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses so that if one of them errs the other can remind her."

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826 : The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE DEFICIENCY OF A WOMAN’S MIND."

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Or the numerous Islamic countries including Iran, Nigeria, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Mali, and soon to be Iraq where young girls are married off in accordance with Islamic principles:

"Yemen has backtracked on protecting girls from forced marriage. In 1999, Yemen’s parliament, citing religious grounds, abolished the legal minimum age for marriage for girls and boys, which was then 15. In 2009, a majority in parliament voted to set 17 as the minimum age, but a group of lawmakers, contending that reinstating a minimum age would be contrary to Sharia (Islamic law), used a parliamentary procedure to prevent the law from going into effect."

Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh : It is incorrect to say that it's not permitted to marry off girls who are 15 and younger. A girl aged 10 or 12 can be married. Those who think she's too young are wrong and they are being unfair to her. We hear a lot in the media about the marriage of underage girls. We should know that Shariah law has not brought injustice to women.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (4840) and Muslim (1422) : The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) when she was six years old and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old

Dr. Salih bin Fawzan, a prominent cleric and member of Saudi Arabia’s highest religious council : issued a fatwa (legal ruling) that asserted there is no minimum age for marriage. Girls could be married “even if they are in the cradle.”

Ibn Batal’s authoritative exegesis of Sahih Bukhari : The ulema [Islam's interpreters] have agreed that it is permissible for fathers to marry off their small daughters, even if they are in the cradle. But it is not permissible for their husbands to have sex with them unless they are capable of being placed beneath and bearing the weight of the men. And their capability in this regard varies based on their nature and capacity. Aisha was 6 when she married the prophet, but he had sex with her when she was 9 [i.e., when she was deemed capable]

The late Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran, Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution : A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/20/iraq-child-marriage-bill-human-rights : A spokesman for the justice minister remained defiant: "There are those who disagree with this law and we don't care about them because they are against Islam There are ones who think we should modify the law (which will be open to religious interpretation), but for the rest, it is an election campaign and we don't care about what they say.

PigletJohn · 12/08/2014 11:04

I am reminded that anti-Muslim extremism may also be on the rise.

hiddenhome · 12/08/2014 11:09

Perhaps anti Muslim extremism might be on the rise as a reaction to Muslim extremism. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction and all that.

What are a population supposed to do when faced with terrorist and social threat?

BornFreeButinChains · 12/08/2014 11:12

Mistress your post is really disturbing and makes me love Dr Taj even more.

BornFreeButinChains · 12/08/2014 11:14

sorry disturbing minimises that post....I can't find words to explain it..deeply troubling and upsetting.

I knew women did not have equal rights, far from it, but religious/state sanctioned paedophilia?

hiddenhome · 12/08/2014 11:17

The world is currently struggling to deal with a medieval belief system that is demonstrating hostility and aggression towards others.

Hundreds of years ago, the Catholic Church enforced its will on others by means of violence, torture, intimidation and threat. The population weren't permitted to read The Bible in English and the priest was left to interpret it according to what Rome dictated, in order to keep Catholics terrified and under control. It was more like a political system than a religion.

I can see clear parallels between what was going on then and Islam now.

BornFreeButinChains · 12/08/2014 11:20

I agree hidden its almost medieval.

BornFreeButinChains · 12/08/2014 11:21

well people in Iraq are saying IS wants to turn the clock back to year dot.