AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

My family teach their kids to respect others religion as they do their own - the kids would get what-for for disrespecting a priest, vicar, rabbai or voodoo witch doctor. Not sure what they say about athiests though.

There is one woman who swims head to feet covered. She is always covered up fully (not face but that and her hands are all that show) and is a white English convert (I overheard her tell another mum).

She sits and chats to other mums and dads (none of them covered to close the amount that she is) and we say 'hi'. I'd love to ask her why she feels the need to cover to the extent that she does, but I would think I was being rude and a bit personal.

green we comment on what each person wears all the time, people take it on the chin, think its rude etc and get on with it...

There was a recent thread about ladies wearing denier thin leggings. there was one about tiny shorts and bum cheeks hanging out...

If I got myself into a bikini I would not be surprised if I could read peoples minds seeing me, that they were thinking, oh no, look at lardy arse in her bikini all spilling out, because I am a lardy arse. It wouldnt mortally offend me.

Interesting, what do you think of Dr Taj? He says no covering is neccasry?

I haven't read what Dr Taj says, I have never heard of him to be honest but I will look him up later. I also agree that face covering isn't necessary, well, I swing between yay and nay but for quite a while I have been nay. If this Dr is saying no covering at all, if he is saying you can go out in shorts and t shirts with your hair uncovered I wont be taking him seriously at all.

I would be offended/sad/upset/embarrassed if people were talking about my clothing. Especially if it were in the swimming pool as it would have taken me a lot of time to get the courage together to go there in the first place. If I heard someone say I looked ridiculous and silly I am pretty sure I wouldn't be going back again.

I am not one for commenting on how other people look in their clothing, I don't think its very nice.

I have had a very glance down a newspaper article I found on him, he seems to be against covering the face but Im assuming he is fine with covering the hair and body. The bit that stood out as I scanned down was in the paragraph below where he talks about Pakistan and only Pakistan as if its the leading country for Islam. That's the bit I found weird.

First, there is no religious requirement on Muslims to don the burka; second, the burka is not a feature of Pakistani culture, where 90 per cent of women do not wear it; third, there is no unqualified human right to wear whatever we want in public. In every developed society, personal freedoms have to take account of wider social mores

An Islamic cleric; perhaps the most controversial imam in Britain today.
In an age when the highest-profile Muslim preachers are bearded, anti-Western firebrands such as Abu Hamza or Omar Bakri Dr Hargey seems an anomaly.
He does not care much for male facial hair. He believes that women can be both seen and heard, even in a mosque at Friday prayers.

"Liberal, progressive Muslims have finally won a battle against the extremists that dominate the Muslim establishment in Britain."

Dr Hargey, a clean-shaven imam from Oxford who describes himself as a "thorn in the side of the Muslim hierarchy", had just won a libel claim against a conservative Muslim newspaper that claimed he belonged to a sect which many in his faith believe is heretical. A South African anti-apartheid campaigner who has lived in Britain on and off for the past three decades, Dr Hargey has made many enemies because of his liberal brand of Islam which he preaches from a small assembly hall

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-imam-who-took-on-the-muslim-mccarthyists-1666126.html

A very brave man who fought apartheid and is speaking out about extremism in the uk too.

"Muslim women need to cover (if they are practicing)". I don't agree read the Koran. It just says modest clothing for men and women. There is no need for these all in one body swimming things. There is no need for clothing rules in Islam which make women's lives curtailed, restrained and much worse than men's. It is sexism at its worst and I would like every Muslim woman in the UK to realise this and I am glad we have the freedom of speech to say so. Just as I am glad Muslim women could do the same - tell women who aren't covered why that is bad.

There is a right even to be nude in the UK. All you have to do is avoid causing a breach of the peace. We need to ensure women do not lose their rights in English law to wear very little if they wish to even if they are in areas where some women want us to return the restrictive clothing of the Victorian age. The body particularly the naked bod is a wonderful thing and if there is a God I am sure she created it so it can be shown. you could argue you insult God by covering the body. You spit in the fact of God's creation and pander to sexism and stay under the control of men who want to own and possess women and keep them for themselves as submissive possessions.

However as I say I am a libertarian. I would not ban women covering even in public pools. I think it is a shame the muslim women at our gym don't go in the pool with their children whereas the many hindu women do. That to me is religion at its worst and it means many of them don't exercise as much as hindu and atheist women locally too. It would be good to see more female olympic sportswomen from Saudi. It will happen bit by bit as they see the error of their ways and how wrong they have interpreted what they thought was the word of God.

ISIS is today's big worry. They are growing, have a lot of good weapons seized from Iraq and are pretty violent and extreme. The other news item today is muslim radicalisation in prisons and a prison officer speaking out against it - I think he was stabbed my a radicalised youth in a prison who wants death for anyone who is not a believer. Now the born again Christians think you go to Hell unless you are "saved" so that is in a sense just as nasty but they tend not to take it as far as murder.

Most muslims in the UK are moderate and many like my own housekeeper don't cover up at all, in any sense, not even arms and legs. That of course appears a lot less sexist and a lot more integrated. It feels better for the feminist cause.

"We need to create an indigenous British Islam that is integrated into its own environment. It should stay true to Koranic teachings but is also erudite, egalitarian and enlightened."
When Dr Hargey invited Amina Wadud to lead prayers at his mosque, it was mostly women in full veils who objected outside. "It was like women protesting against Emily Pankhurst chaining herself to the railings," he says

. "Muslim women are being brainwashed by men into adopting customs that are not a religious requirement. Islam is not about superficial tokens. When I see women adopting the niqab [full face veil] I want to tell them that the niqab isn't mentioned in the Koran. Nor are veils. The only thing the Koran says is to dress modestly."

I would not ban women covering even in public pools

You would be far more likely to see me swimming in a pool entirely covered...Id like to see them more. I would not go in a swimming costume or bikini, I liked Nigellas swimming outfit, that would be perfect for me.

Now the born again Christians think you go to Hell unless you are "saved" so that is in a sense just as nasty but they tend not to take it as far as murder

Christianity has gone through a very different process than Islam....seperated from church and state and so on.

I have read the Qu'ran Greengrow, thanks for the suggestion though. I am satisfied with what it says and I believe that I should be covering my hair. It basically (in one part) says not to display your ornaments and draw your veil over your bosom. The veil being the thing worn on your head. It was common in those times for women who weren't Muslim to cover their hair with some kind of headband but to have their neck on show. So for me, I am satisfied that you should cover your hair, neck and chest.

also Christians should live and let live hopefully.

I can't take Dr taj seriously at all.

Really why Green?

No-one has answered my question about why Muslim women wear inappropriate gym clothing - totally covered except for their face which makes them too hot for the exercise they are doing. The men don't do this -only the women. Why is that? Why does a woman need to wear trousers, a long sleeved tunic and head covering on an exercise machine? To me, that is just cruel. I don't see men dressed this way in the gym. Why is that?

I would have thought it was fairly obvious Migsy. You have to be covered in front of non male relatives, just because you choose to go to the gym doesn't mean you can suddenly strip off into shorts and t-shirt. Why is it cruel? That's just the way it is. Men have different dress rules. That's just the way it is as well. If it was so unbearable I don't think they would be going to they gym.

'That's just the way it is. Men have different dress rules. That's just the way it is as well.'

And that is one of the things that reveals the complete void in comprehension between those who accept that as an absolute and those that don't. Our history for centuries has been about people not accepting what they see as injustice and unfairness as 'just the way it is' and rebelling, protesting and changing the status quo.

Although a workout in full kit probably increases the weight loss.

Green whats wrong with Dr Taj, he seems to be incredibly well educated, liberal man, who wants to see Islam interpreted in a way that is more compatible with Uk and surely his work with women in Islam is amazing?

He seems to be excellent at de bunking some myths, speaks out clearly about extremism and wants to move the religion forward.

BornFree, Dr Taj seems to suggest that its ok to eat any meat you like as long as it isn't pork (as in, never mind if its halal or not), he is the only Imam to marry Muslims females to Non Muslim men (this has never been allowed), he thinks female Imams are fine and has had one for prayers at his organisation (again, never heard of this anywhere else before). I also get the impression he kind of decided he was going to be the Imam for this place in Oxford rather than being appointed. He has a PhD in Islamic studies but I don't think this qualifies anyone in being an Imam alone.

Anyway, until tonight I had never heard of him so the things I have read may be untrue or skewed.

Downbytheriverside I don't see it as unfair or unjust. You do. I chose to follow those rules, they are fine for me. I have no desire to protest or change it. I'm happy with my dress code.

What work has he done for women that's amazing Bornfree? I am interested.

I understand that it's a choice you made and you are happy with it. I have several friends who are in very traditionsl 1950s sitcom-style marriages and they love it. Complete traditional divisions of labour and expectations.
If they tried to make me and my OH live like that, we would resist with every fibre of our beings.
Have you heard of the film 'The Stepford wives'? It was a horror film.
Individual choice, yes. Compulsion, no.

greeneggs it seems you are blindly following your faith regardless of the consequences. That's bit not something I would want for myself or my dds.

I choose to be an atheist because I think most religions are a way of controlling people, especially when folk choose to follow blindly with out questions.

At one point they thought the world was flat. We all know the outcome of that.

I've followed this thread for a while now and felt there have been valid points on both sides but reading your last two posts made me feel really sad at the thought of other muslim ladies just going with the flow and not wanting to realise that women are equal to men. If you have any dc I hope you I still this on them rather than reinforcing it as it's simply not true.

What work has he done for women that's amazing Bornfree? I am interested

I would say just of a quick skim of the link, having men and women in mixed prayer , having a lady take the prayers . Those in it's self enforces equal rights too women. That's amazing. Women are equal to men.