AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

I'm not sure if banning burka, scaf or anything in between would stop stupid wee lads yelling 'jihad' and running off to get themselves killed in Syria.

We need better laws to stop hate speak, and to educate kids at school who are at risk of having their heads turned by the preachers/internet wankers of hate, and also help out new immigrants to help them be 'at home' here.

There are people (ok, men) who are given jaw dropping amount or airtime/legitimacy in this country, and we just can't legally shut the buggers down! They speak for a small, tiny, teensy minority of disaffected blokes/youth (worrying amounts of whom have been scallies in the past then found god - like the aussie in the papers today). These people scare the beejesus out of the 'muslim in the street' burha-d or not.

I've met lovely covered women and unfriendly, horrible ones. The scrap of fabric doesn't make them so. Some people are just miserable, grumpy, unfriendly (me being prime case in point - I'm sure lots of people find me a miserable old cow, but I'm not really!).

Stressing - "There is no definition of a 'moderate' Muslim."

I didn't realise you needed a definition. Do you not know what the word means?

"The Muslim community as you rightly point out is diverse. This makes it impossible for us to understand the religion."

You clearly have internet access. If you are interested, I am sure that you can learn all about Islam and understand it as well as anyone else.

If you can't be bothered to research, there are many Muslims on MN who would be happy to answer your questions (as long as they come from a point of open-minded curiosity and not prejudice and derision). Their thread is the Muslim Tearoom.

"What do the Westernised Muslims think and feel? Tell us."

All Muslims I know, in Western Europe or elsewhere, consider religion to be between themselves and God. They go to the mosque maybe once or twice a year. They pray inwardly, and don't do the salat. Most don't fast, some fast several times during the month of Ramadan, symbolically. They wear normal modern clothes, normal bikinis & bathing suits on the beach.

These are not the people you would think of as "Muslim" because they do not fit into your understanding of "Muslim". You would pass them by on the street without even noticing them. The people you notice as "Muslim" as not all Muslims. That is what I am trying to tell you.

"What are your aspirations for Britain? How can your religion exist alongside the West when its fundamental belief structure opposes it?"

My religion?

I started answering the myriad questions in this mail but they got sillier so I stopped - like not being considered a Muslim in the eyes of an Imam etc. You really need to learn some basics before you start questioning people. That is my honest recommendation.

The thread is are Muslims going backwards and getting more extreme Sadly some (younger ones) often are at present in many countries. Hopefully we can counter that was Western influences grow.

We are very lucky in this country that we tend not to be intolerant which is probably why so many people want to live here rather than so very many other countries. I am sure most of us are pretty tolerant and moderate although of course exercising our rights to draw however many cartoons we like whether of Jesus and Mo or anyone. If people don't like the freedom of speech in the West they can go to Saudi. I apply the same rules to the rights of religious fanatics of all religions to preach that homosexuality is a sin or that men ought to have 4 wives. In a sense the UK is being hoist by its own petard - we have greater freedom of speech than many countries so fanatics are free to spout their rubbish. Unless we can get at disaffects youths in the same way the fanatics do then we will suffer for our freedom of speech.

You need to look at religion like this:

Christianity: not all branches think that the Pope is gods rep on earth (think Ian Paisley and his "huy iz the ahntee-chryst!" rants). Catholics and protestants knocking seven bells out of each other since Henry VIII and the pope had their little falling out.

Wee Frees - sheesh, what a bunch of kill joys

Church of Scotland - a little too uncerimonial

Baptists - far too jolly

Evanjelicals - far far FAR too much of the happy clappy stuff

Episcopalians - almost catholic

There are loads and loads and loads of flavour of christians - and all of them 'right. Ok so they aren't demanding death and damnation to all the others so much these days (but I'm sure there are some weirdos who do but we don't hear about them).

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/12/muslim-scare-stories-media-halal-sharia-niqab

Supporters of this garment like to pretend that it is a welcome symbol of our society’s multicultural diversity and philosophical tolerance. But such warped thinking is woefully misguided. In reality, the burka is an archaic tribal piece of cloth that is eagerly used by fundamentalist zealots to promote a toxic brand of extremist non-Koranic theology.

Everyone in Britain, including Muslims, should oppose the insidious spread of this vile piece of clothing, which imprisons women, threatens social harmony, fuels distrust, has grave health implications and is a potent security risk.

This is from Dr Taj Hargey and I liked his piece on Halal meat also.

Supporters of the burka talk about freedom of choice — yet it is not women who are being given that freedom, but men who are imposing their will. That is not empowerment but imprisonment.

The burka is just another weapon in the jihadist arsenal of misogyny, like forced marriage, female genital mutilation and sexist discrimination. It should have no part in British society, where women are supposed to be treated as equal citizens. By tolerating it, we are allowing a form of gender apartheid to grow in our midst.

All of us, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, have a duty to challenge the religious hardliners who have cynically exploited British traditions of tolerance and individual liberty to pursue their own twisted sectarian agenda imported wholesale from the Arab Middle East.

He said he has been a "thorn in the side of Muslim hierarchy" because he has openly endorsed non-niqab and non-beard-wearing Muslims, sanctioned marriages of Muslim women to men of other faiths, actively promoted mixed congregations in mosques, arranging for the first ever female-led Muslim congregational prayers to be held in the UK last October.

MistressMia - I am curious as to whether you have come across other openly apostate ex-Muslims (not just lapsed or secular but those who have actually left the Islamic religion) and whether you think it is quite easy to leave Islam in the UK without repercussions? I hope you don't mind me asking.

Greeneggs, if a strict Muslim is advised to avoid non-believers by selecting friends carefully, then presumably if I try to befriend a fully covered woman she will surely rebuff my attempts as I am an atheist Catholic so presumably undesirable? How would she and I get to understand each other better?

Err, nope. I never said you cant be friends with a non muslim, I said you should chose your friends wisely. Please stop trying to change what I am saying and just admit that you have no desire to speak to a female Muslim who covers. You would rather take facts from random websites.

Cote, you may only have Muslim friends like that but I think most do a little more than that! I fast, pray, visit a mosque more than twice a year and never wear a bikini at the beach and I'm fairly moderate!

Someone mentioned that this thread was about islam becoming more extreme in the UK. I think people are worried it is becoming more extreme everywhere though I don't feel threatened or worried in the UK -though if I'm honest there is a tiny little disquiet at the back of my mind wondering if we are niavely underestimating the issue.

There is no doubt that people have seen a change in the Uk during their lives where islam is much more visable with mosques and dress (niqabs and men in beard/ traditional dress does seem a much more recent addition). Before the muslims we knew tended to be very moderate in dress etc so not surprising some people are uneasy or not sure what this more recent visable presence indicates. People seem to accept hijab and modest clothing no oroblem but niqaab does come over as more extreme and I do wonder the different reasons women adopt it - whether it is a defiance and statement, if they are forced to wear it or just feel more comfortable / safer.

I would be more worried about this if I was muslim
though, especially more moderate. I have malaysian friends who have felt a more hardline shift and I have moderate and atheist turkish friends who are uneasy.

I always oppose the ban on niquaab as I see it as a fundamental right for women to wear what they want - I don't like it though but would never judge the woman and would be happy to talk to her etc.

And it's not just islam. Any move towards a more extreme position whether it be far right, christian or anything that brings more intolerance worries me.

All of us, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, have a duty to challenge the religious hardliners who have cynically exploited British traditions of tolerance and individual liberty to pursue their own twisted sectarian agenda imported wholesale from the Arab Middle East

I agree with this and feel with British youth flying off to support Isis etc we must take a hard line on all this and not be tolerant of extremism.

I think we're seeing a snowball effect globally.

I remember when Salman Rushdie was first issued with a fatwa and all the fuss that it entailed. That was many years ago now.

Now, the media is full of Islamic terrorism and brutality on a daily basis. It's just going on and on and on with more and more extreme groups as time goes by.

This is only going to get worse.

Greeneggs:

Please stop making up lies about me. It is getting really annoying. I haven't posted any links to "random websites"! MN is the only place I have ever discussed this on, and the only other information I have is based on reading a few literary novels and going to the Hajj exhibition at the British Museum.

I am beyond pissed off at you lying about me and misrepresenting me, then projecting this tendency onto me.

YOU advised ME yesterday to get to know a fully veiled woman if I wanted to learn how she felt - perfectly reasonable advice from you.

YOU explained to another poster that people should not take death threats seriously because the way they are interpreted in real life is that the Muslim should just be careful about who he/she befriends.

I drew from this that my attempts to befriend said imaginary veiled woman would no doubt be rebuffed because I didn't meet the criteria. I think this is a perfectly reasonable inference to draw from your comments today to others. Of course I would be interested in knowing how veiled women felt. In actual fact, I am very unlikely to get to know one.

What on earth is there about all this that warranted a nasty comment?

I am too lazy to google... Whatever happened to the Nation of Islam? Remember the guys in the suits and bow ties?

Flipflops I haven't told any lies about you. I didn't say you had posted any links. A few messages ago you said I was accusing you of things. I give up now. You said earlier you are horrified by people who cover their face, you say you think its highly unlikely that you would befriend such a person. Then you say you would like to know how a veiled woman feels.

I haven't said anything about death threats not being taken seriously. I simply said that extreme preachers will interpret things in ways to make you not want to be friends with non muslims, I cant even remember what it was now, but I just talked about choosing friends wisely that wouldn't lead you astray. I have plenty of non Muslims friends.

Nation of Islam are still around, I think led by Louis Farrakhan.

Flip flops why don't you ask one of your muslims friends who wear/don't wear a scarf if they know anyone who covers their face and perhaps they would arrange a meeting. Noone is suggesting you become friends, but you would have a chance to ask questions. However, it could be that you ask 10 different women exactly why they cover, the history behind it and they may have different answers for you.

I go to a gym and the Muslim women are covered head to toe in trousers, long sleeved tops and a head scarf. I don't see any men covered like this. I would like to know why women have to sweat it out in a hot gym with such inappropriate, hot exercise clothes whereas men don't.

Also, where are the female Muslim athletes?

I don't want to argue with you greeneggs and I also give up, I don't think we communicate especially well with each other :)

I did say face-covering is horrifying to me (note, not "people who face cover"' only the fact of having to cover a face in public) HENCE it would be interesting to know the true feelings of such a person as the immediate answer always given is that it is their choice; I would contend that a circumscribed choice is not a free choice. It is only unlikely circumstantially that I would befriend such a person, not unlikely because I wouldn't want to, but unlikely because I would never meet them in the course of my life. I only know the kinds of Muslims I meet at work, which is men, and women who choose to wear a scarf only, and some women who don't wear external symbols at all.

Anyway, pax.

Greeneggs to your second comment yes, I am realising there would be loads of different answers and no consistent view.

They wear great long swimming things at our gym and look utterly ridiculous and are an affront to God if there is one. I woudl not ban it even on health grounds in the pool but I am free to say they are silly and that the words of Dr Taj above are very very wise indeed.

it is true that Islam is going backwards world wide. Turkey protects by law the right not to have the head covered. There is a big movement to reverse that. It is getting harder and harder on this planet to be a moderate muslim.

Off the top of my head there's an Iranian womens footie team and quite a few shooting teams. There will be female muslim athletes but I suspect you won't see gymnastics, ice skating, high jump etc done by women in a muslim run state.

I wonder about ballet dancers. I suspect you won't often get to see a ballet in Saudi, but do little girls get to dance there? My older Iranian relatives loved to do ballet when they were girls/teens and I wonder if the grandchildren get to do it now (don't really like to ask in case its a very dumb question).

I think it is the way that Islam or versions of it treat other religions that worries me. isis in Iraq is awful and the murder of Catholics in Nigeria. yes I know Isis is extreme and Diks comment about the Moslem children who were rude to the Catholic priest

You see Greengrow, that isn't a nice thing to say at all. Muslim women need to cover (if they are practicing) so the only way they can go to the swimming pool is to wear something that covers their body. I think they are pretty brave to wear them. If they read this it may put them off wearing it and going as they are probably wondering how people will react anyway. Why do you think it looks so silly and ridiculous? Are you taking about the swimming outfit that's is kind of like some kind of wetsuit or do you mean they wear masses of material in the gym? I have thought about wearing it myself as I would love to get in the swimming pool with my children but thanks to your comments there I am put off. I wouldn't fancy hearing such a comment as I was in a swimming pool.

How would you like it if a Muslim came on and said, 'well I was taking my children swimming today and this non muslim woman was there in this tiny little bikini and she looked so ridiculous in this pathetic scrap of material with all her bits out' etc. You may feel kind of offended by it.