AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

MistressMia Sun 10-Aug-14 20:34:54

greeneggs I expected you to leave. It's the classic run away attitude of muslims when being asked uncomfortable questions.

I didn't run away from anything. What uncomfortable questions? I replied to you regarding the tribe and gave my thoughts and also said that as I am not a scholar and am not armed with hadiths and references and so on in my head am not qualified to start answering in a more in depth way. The same goes for the other link you provided which was a long list of things.

I looked at your link about the person who used to teach in Islamia, I had a good read through lots of the pages on it. Yes, I can see he went completely the other way. That's up to him. I think most of us have gone through similar, getting very into it and then needing a bit of breathing space, wondering about lots of things, doubting things and reading more and so on and so on. However even after all of that I am satisfied that it is still the right religion for me. I have looked at the council of ex-muslims website a few times so it wasn't shocking for me, but I did enjoy reading it, so thank you for sharing the link with me.

I then got to thinking, this thread was about the rise of extremism and you seem to just be spending lots of time on here wanting to make Muslims doubt there religion. You decided to leave so you are on a crusade to get the rest of us to do so too. No one else has come here and tried to offer links and arguments as to why their way is the right way. I have not accused the OP of being racist. I have no idea if she is, I just know she doesn't like Muslims. I do not wish to enter into further dialogue with you. Not because I am running away from answering questions, I am always happy to say, 'sorry, I don't know the answer to that'. I don't really want to be brainwashed into leaving Islam as I am perfectly happy with it. Thank you.

"I am free to look at any individual and consider them as my equals. But Muslims by the very teaching of Allah are told to reject 'non believers' - they are forbidden from befriending them."
You will always get silly preachers shouting this kind of stuff. They also shout lots more rubbish. It doesn't means its totally right. I think really its about being careful with who you chose to be friends with so you don't go astray. For example, you wouldn't be likely to decide to befriend a gang or a group of drug addicts as your main friendship circle, you might not want to spend all your free time with groups such a s Jehovas Witnesses who go door to door preaching, if you do you may well decide after some time that these things are ok and right and you might join up to them. Its just about being careful with who you are friends with. There is a story about the prophet going to the house of an old jewish lady to check that she was ok as he hadn't seen her (she hadn't been standing waiting to throw her rubbish on him that day). Going to someone's house, seeing if they are ok, helping them, isn't that befriending a non believer?

I will wait now to be told I am talking nonsense....

NB I have no issues with Jehovas Witnesses/drug addicts etc etc.

Cote - I have on nearly every post acknowledged the fact that Islam is diverse and have not made sweeping statements at all. It's just your defensiveness I'm afraid jumping to your own conclusions without bothering to read what I've said.

I've been curious how Muslims interpret the Koran and apply it to every day life here in the UK. Maybe I've not expressed myself very well. I think I've given plenty of opportunity for proud Muslims to respond to any statements I've made or questions I've asked about their religion, I've based any statements I've made on information I've found in popular Islamic websites.

To keep playing the blame card by accusing me of having a closed mind is lazy. All I want to do is learn, but all I'm finding is more confusion - from Muslims and non Muslim's alike. No one seems to agree what Islam is about - it seems in a state of flux.

What I notice is that the message is 'we will be alright' so long as Muslims stop acting like Muslims. It seem to me that Britain's future hinges on the hope that Muslims 'dum down' Islam, eliminate the more destructive preachings and bring it into the modern day world. However, by doing that - by moderating Islam - Muslims risk 'not being good Muslims'. They won't fit into Islam, they may continue to feel on the fringe of UK society. I can see it must be hard to be a Muslim.

But green JH's do not have violence threaded through their religion. Drug addicts do not share a common religion. There is no problem with preaching - it's what is being preached that is the problem.

You have totally missed my point Stressing. My point wasn't about who preaches violence or not it was about choosing friendship circles. That's all. It could be for anyone of any belief system. Sigh.

Stressing, I don't know what sites you got your info from but I remember looking at something someone had put on this thread and it was info on Islam but not written by Muslims. It was more of an anti- Muslim site. I don't know if they were your links but I'm just saying, don't believe everything you read on the internet, it isn't always reliable.

'Until I met them the only muslims I knew seemed very moderate/free/western in their views and lifestyle. Tbh, I don't think my more strict Muslim friends see the more moderate muslims as proper muslims.'

That's the problem with trying to categorise and pigeonhole any faith, you could replace 'Muslim' with 'Christian' or 'Jewish' and your paragraph would still make sense.
It's not how an individual or a group chooses to live their lives that bothers me, if their choices match basic human rights (I'd have a problem with anyone wanting to re-establish the Aztec faith for example)
It's when those groups want to make others live by the same rules, when things start being banned and the consequences of not complying go beyond being peacefully protested at.
There is an eruv in NW London that has transformed the lives of practising Jews. Did you know about it? It hasn't impacted on the lives of non-Jews at all.

Yes, most of us know about the eruv. For non believers it just seems really silly that you can push your child in a buggy if it is behind the bit of string. What God could possibly think those types of petty rules are sensible? However the eruv does not presumab ly stop non jewish people ilving in inside it walking down the street in a bikini or snogging their boyfriend in public or saying Muslim prayers or frying bacon at home so as long as the eruv does not have those effects (I hope people can reassure me it does not), has planning permission and does not look unsightly then let it be.

However as someone said above the choices of some religions do affect basic human rights - rights of girls to work, to be treated equally at home, rights of our adult children to engage in free sex, be gay and the like.

There has been a rise in the number of people who think it is essential for Muslims to do things which are not essential. Plenty of muslims on this thread think preachers who say do not befriend unbelievers are wrong and presumably hat you get 62 virgins if you die a martyr and perhaps even that you cover up or that men can have 4 wives. It would be nice to see some surveys of muslim beliefs. There is a major international survey of Catholics at the moment where they are asked about their views. I think 90% + are in favour of brith control and practise it for example. We might find it the same in most muslim homes - that the women often earn more than the men, the girls do not defer to boys, girls are left as much money as boys in wills and all these stupid rules are mostly ignored and they are happy if children are gay. I wonder if the muslims on the thread can enlighten us?

Hi DownbytheRiverside

I had no idea what an eruv was so I looked it up. Does it mean that in the Jewish community of North London there is like a pole and wire system set up showing people their boundaries. I have to say I know very little about Jewish practices. I think they go home on Friday eve for Shabbat and there are certain things they can do until its over (not sure how long it lasts, is it a night?) so I looked on the website and found the info I posted below, I'm guessing you might know more about it than me, I'm interested to know more about Shabbat (in basic terms please!) I would love to find out why you can only use a pushchair in an eruv and not use an umbrella if you have any idea?

an Eruv, you can carry outside your home in the same way as you can in your own house and garden. All other Shabbat restrictions are unaffected.

Do's and Don'ts

The Eruv Allows You To:
##Push buggies and wheelchairs
##Carry items used on Shabbat:
##A Tallit or Siddur to Shul
##A book to a class or Shiur
##Food items for use on Shabbat
##Glasses, house keys etc.

The Eruv Does Not Allow You To: ##Carry items on Shabbat for use after Shabbat
##Carry items that are "Muktzah"
##An item whose main use is prohibited on Shabbat, e.g. writing implement, notepad, tool, wallet, purse, electronic key , mobile phone
##An umbrella even if opened before Shabbat may not be carried on Shabbat
##An item which is neither food nor a utensil that has a practical use on Shabbat, e.g. money, animal, credit card, stone
##A valuable item that one expends extra care for its safety, e.g. passport, cheque, expensive painting, sale merchandise, etc
##Any item which cannot be used on Shabbat or whose intended use is for after Shabbat e.g. car or office key

##Athletic activities
##Watering the lawn, gardening, picking flowers and fruits, etc
##Playing with water, playing in a sprinkler, playing in a sandpit
##Putting rubbish out for collection, mailing letters
##Bringing gifts to hosts on Shabbat or Yom Tov (unless it is food to be consumed at that visit)
##Enter the following: business establishments, stores, offices, libraries or places of entertainment (cinemas etc) - even if payment has been made in advance)

As for contraception the majority of Muslims are fine with it as far as I know, there is nothing that says you cant use it, I think the Quran just says something like 'don't kill your children for fear of want' so that would rule out abortion but I don't think you are killing a child if it hasn't been conceived though no doubt a person with major extreme view could interpret it that way.

I have also never seen girls treated less favourably than boys in any home I have ever been in as far as I am aware. Even in some pretty strict religious/cultural homes in Yorkshire the girls went to university, got jobs and went out with friends just as their brothers did.

I know about the eruv because I have Jewish friends who cover the entire range from very liberal to Hassid. In the same way that I have Muslim and Christian friends who also cover a wide range of interpretations. It's one of the things that made me interested in researching the background of xenophobia, and the history of the persecution of minorities.
What triggers a fear response in the majority population against an identified minority? Even when the actual threat is so much smaller if present at all than the perceived threat. How can that be defused?

The umbrella? You are not alowed to put up tents for shelter on Shabbat, and for some orthodox jews that includes umbrellas. For others, it doesn't.

Ok so I just looked and its because you cant build structures during Shabbat and an umbrella is classed as a temporary structure that offers protection.

The things you learn... so now I need to go and find out about pushchairs and electronic keys...

You are right that in the Netherlands the situation is getting increasingly more tense. I expect that politicians have kind of giving up on the idea of integration through the education system. They have given quite a bit of funding to pure Muslim schools. It is a cop out. It makes Muslims happy and non-muslims happy, but of course will in the long-term back fire. Muslims have a very bad press in the Netherlands, this may be due to a minority or large minority or small majority or majority who knows?

Where I live, we have almost weekly PRO-IS demonstrations, usually with blatant anti-semitism and lots of damage to properties.

In one area of the Hague (Schilderswijk) it i no longer safe for women to wear mini skirts, police is reluctant to go there, you cannot buy alcohol, pork there anymore, not even in the Dutch shops and cafes who have been there many years, the atmosphere is very hostile. Almost all non-Muslims are desperate to move out. We have Islamic schools, virtually allof them if not all have been in the news because of major fraud, poor educational standards, sexism and intolerance.

Dutch crime statistics show that by fast the majority of crimes, in both absolute and relative, terms are committed by Moroccans. young women in Western dress are hassled by Moroccan teenagers in ordinary shopping streets and called Dutch whores.

This goes on a daily basis. The fact is people are getting fed up with this. We are not talking first generation, the first generation came as gastarbeiter and had jobs. Now we are talking the second (the parents) and third (kids, teenagers) generation. Many are out of work or don't want to work, blaming Dutch society for all their misfortune and drumming this view into their children. The children have a right old reputation in the educational system as downright rude and not willing to engage and learn.

For example, in my dd's old school which was Roman Catholic, a priest came to talk and the Muslim kids, boys as well as girls, put their hands on their ears and closed their eyes. The scholl tried to engage the parents which totally failed. When dd's friend handed out Christmas cards, they threw them back at her saying they didn't want them and were not allowed to touch them.

This may give you a feel for how it is here.

I think the issue is often about social factors as much as religious. If people feel disenfranchised and disconnected from society then they will look to something else. This problem is not exclusive to one ethnicity or religious group. You say the problem is down to Moroccans but if they are 3rd generation then the problem is down to Dutch people (Moroccan is not an ethnicity and their nationality would be Dutch).

Interestingly, in Britain there is a lot of concern developing about a specific group being left behind educationally etc. Its not what you might think.
Parliamentary report on White Working Class Underachievement in Education

The issue is also one of disengaged youth in various parts of society rather than crudely based on religion.

This is really what we should be talking about

"What triggers a fear response in the majority population against an identified minority? Even when the actual threat is so much smaller if present at all than the perceived threat. How can that be defused? "

(Although I am not a majority actually where I live (being White British and not Muslim or Jewish) I am very much a minority).

First of all it is just a preceived threat? Every item on the news these days is Jews and Muslims killing each other. That is not invented. Every time we want to travel by plane on family holidays we have to undergo all kinds of intrusive searches because of risks of what are mostly Muslim bombs not these days the IRA, because they are worried we will have bombs in our shoes or liquids although the bombs apparently can be totally hidden within the person. One Muslim chap buried a bomb inside his brother implanted which could then be set off. That is apparently totally undetectable on scanners so we are probably just terrorising the population by the state insisting on rules about liquids and the like at air ports presumably because the population can be better controlled if you make them scared.

Secondly if it is just a perceived threat in the UK because most people want to go abroad to kill not do it on our shores, then is the state fermenting this through publicity because an election is in the offing? A good foreign war always deflects from economic problems at home. The top item in the Times today is Cameron being urged to launch air strikes against jihadists in Iraq. I don't think we are making these news items up and in fact they are all sitting out there in the middle east cuddling each other preaching peace and love. Instead they all want to blow each other's brains out because one is shia or one is sunni or whatever or one is a sect like druze or that other similar lot caught on the mountain.

Chaz, I think it's disingenuous to use the "we are all Dutch/British" argument. Clearly in the town Dik mentions there are Dutch (white) girls and women being called whores by Dutch (Moroccan descent) boys and men. It is necessary in such an example to discern between types of Dutchness or an incorrect conclusion on causation of the problem will be reached. That just wastes everyone's time, surely? The issue isn't Dutchness in this case but failure of integration and a basic cultural incompatibility.

Greeneggs, if a strict Muslim is advised to avoid non-believers by selecting friends carefully, then presumably if I try to befriend a fully covered woman she will surely rebuff my attempts as I am an atheist Catholic so presumably undesirable? How would she and I get to understand each other better?

Flipflops
I think the fact that Dik referred to them as Moroccans was very telling. They aren't seen as Dutch and maybe they don't see themselves as Dutch and that is part of the problem. If you are regarded as a foreigner in your country of birth then where do you look for identity?

"I have also never seen girls treated less favourably than boys in any home I have ever been in as far as I am aware. Even in some pretty strict religious/cultural homes in Yorkshire the girls went to university, got jobs and went out with friends just as their brothers did."

My friends were sent to Pakistan for marriage at 17/18 - not university like their younger brothers. Even as grown women, mothers running their own homes - they were expected to then obey their brothers (much younger and still living with their parents) when their marriages broke down due to incompatibility and abuse.

Yes Chaz, it's a failure of integration, and a sad one. I understand being attached to one's heritage (we are both of Irish descent?) but taking it out feelings of dislocation, and all immigrant communities and their offspring have these feelings, on people of your birth country should not be excused. It isn't their fault.

So glad to see someone typed British values this time; seen English values so many times today I started to wonder what morality I was handing in when I cross the Severn bridge

I have no great wisdom to offer though as someone whose son attends a school with almost as many Muslim kids as ones from other groups, the answer seems to be, no. If anything I am becoming more aware of the reality of Islam- at university I learned Muslims do this and act like that- ha no, most live and act exactly the same way I do. As with Christianity (majority faith here) the people who actually live by the 'rules' is pretty small compared to the ones who self identify then just get on with life. I spent the first 31 years of my life in a rural county where there was no Mosque, all I knew of Islam was what the books told me. I suspect I was lucky to read books, and not the Daily Mail, because if that's the only information you have, you are stuffed.

I agree the sense of dislocation that immigrants can feel is not the responsibility of the local population nor are they responsible for the sense of a foot in each culture that the children may feel. However, integration is not a one way street. People have to want to integrate but they also have to be allowed to integrate. My Dad came over to Britain in the 50's and had to face the "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs" mentality from some people which was also a barrier to integration. My Dad did settle happily but it wasn't just about his willingness to be part of British society, it was also about British society accepting him.

Chaz - I think you are right about integration being a two way street and many mant muslims who came to the uk do and have integrated. There are alway some immigrants who dont (not just muslim of course). I do think choosing slamic schools and women who choose niqaab etc singles out some mulims as those not really wanting to integrate but almost advertising that they want to stay apart.

My MIL told me "when in Rome...". A great expression for 'a foreigner'.

It's also about thinking 'I belong here', 'I like it here', 'I want to live here' and not believing that the 'motherland' is paradise on earth, as a few second genners I know do. Oddly their parents have a more realistic view of life there - a couple of weeks holiday a year visiting grandma obviously gives a very different picture of life there.

And a lot of teens feel disaffected - it's not just a case of feeling alienated or not belonging because your skin/religion isn't 'the norm'. I remember being a teenager and feeling like I was from another planet, being moody/miserable, desperate to 'find' something. Thank god it wasn't religion, drugs or sex!

There is also more likely to be racism/aggression in a housing scheme in Tower Hamlets than the prosperous, leafy streets of Kesington and Chelsea. I wonder why?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2695181/Why-I-Muslim-launching-campaign-ban-burka-Britain.html

i really like this man Dr Taj Hargey.

Stressing - re "He was a warlord"

So? He organized his followers, united tribes, and won battles. I doubt if early Muslims were broken-hearted that their leader didn't get lynched early on and that they didn't get fed to lions for entertainment of the masses.

"But I do want to engage on good terms with Muslims so I will stop saying it."

How big of you.

I think you should continue with your "Boo hoo, warlord! Warlord, I say!". It makes not one bit of intelligible contribution to the thread but clearly makes you feel better about something. So do it. Go on.