AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

DikTrom your last post was, dare I say, almost unbelievable. You must be living in a really odd place if the children segregate themselves at play time into religious groups. I have never heard of anything like it. The children shout about if its halal food or not that's being served? Again, never heard of it.

The bit about parents checking the sweets is believable. However the bit that says it was mostly the boys sweets that were checked is again unbelievable. Are you suggesting that its because they saw boys as more important so felt the need to check they weren't eating something haram?? I think a parent who was a vegetarian would also be checking sweets to see if they had gelatine in.

I'm very sad for you to live in such a place.

Because Chaz Dik is a racist and is clutching at straws to try and justify the rubbish she/he spouts.

You are saying that I cannot possible be part of uk society , not just me, but my children ,my family , my muslim friends and that is not negative ? It's not just negative it's hurtful.
I work, I contribute to the wider society of where I live , I have friends from all different backgrounds and religions but that's not integration enough for you what would be ?

I take your point and I truly do not wish to be hurtful. I'm not a Muslim but I mix with a few Muslims for work reasons, although all of them are men. The problem is that there are huge sections of the community where I live that do not integrate. That is a fact. I don't know where you live but if you take a trip around Manchester, Leeds or Bradford I'm sure you would see what I'm talking about. It depends where you are - the more middle class and educated, the more integration in my experience. Nevertheless, I'm not sure how a fully covered Muslim woman is ever going to integrate with the wider society and it is these kinds of extreme differences that I am talking about.

I don't eat gelatine either ;)

Migsy
I don't doubt that there are some groups that don't integrate. However I wonder if that is as much about ethnicity as religion? Do they mix with Muslims outside of their community?

This is a genuine question which I don't know the answer to. I'm just thinking aloud IYSWIM.

I don't know Chaz.

Most people are drawn to those that are most similar to them. Hence enclaves of British ex-pats abroad who make very little effort to integrate, learn the language and stick to their own ways, foods and customs.

In this country the Sikhs and Hindus I know mostly socialise with other Sikh and Hindus. However very often there will be mixed social groups of 'Asians', compromising Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims, due to the shared culture of the Indian subcontinent.

People sticking to their own types is entirely natural and not indicative of overall integration.

However there is usually a sub-section within each society that does not want to integrate. These are usually those who are more religious. When I was at school it was a few Orthodox Jews. These days, because the numbers are larger, and because it is more obvious by appearance, it appears to be some muslims. I think those who wear the Niqab send out definite signals of wanting to be separate. As do many of those who send their children to Islamic schools and who provide no opportunities for their children to mix with those of other faiths. For those two reasons alone I think both should be banned, as I do not want to see this country turned into ghettos of separate communities, wary of each other.

Research undertaken in the 1980s (in the Netherlands) showed that the moment a school had 20 per cent or more Moroccan and/or Turkish pupils in a primary school class the educational achievements sky dived. A lot research was done and the main findings were:

• the Moroccan/Turkish kids became a subculture
• avoiding the main culture through refusing language and norms of the main culture
• resulting in strife between groups, impacting on overall atmosphere/learning climate
• this had a very negative impact on especially the Turkis/moroccan children but also, although not to the same extent, the other children in the class.

The political solution at he time was to put a ban on the so-called 'black' and 'white' schools, so basically removing the parents' right to choose a school and in this way for the local govt to determine the ethnic mix of each school. There was an outcry of especially white middle class parents, but in the big cities it was nevertheless enforced. Over time many local governments decided to no longer interfere in this manner (was very expensive kids literally had to be bussed drom one part of the city to another part at the expense of the local govt, and of course it was not a vote winner). Now we are back to what in the Netherlands are called 'black' and 'white' schools again. BTW there generally are either none or very few 'black' children at 'black' schools, so it is not a very accurate way of naming them but that is how the Dutch inequality researchers and govt names these schools. And where my dc's initially were was one of these schools were in this case about 40 per cent were Moroccan/Turks, they stuck to each other and had formed a very clear subculture, with disastrous results for the school's performance. We have now moved to,another school suffice to say, totally different culture, totally different educational performance. These are simply facts. I am sure the same could exist in the UK where parents have much more power and choice when choosing a school compared with here.

And no I am not making extremely broad generalisations, I am giving you some very concrete factual examples.

Similar to what Dik says is that where I live schools are becoming known as "having a lot of Asians" and therefore the Asian parents want to send their children there but the white parents don't want to as they feel that their children will be in the minority. This reinforces the segregation. Most Asians around here happen to be Muslim and therefore these schools have mostly Muslim children.

And this happens not just in schools but also outside schools, eg there are Moroccan footbal clubs and kick boxing schools but you do not see many if any Moroccan or Turkish children at ballet, tennis, pony riding, hockey, gymnastics, ice skating, sailing. I cannot think of seeing a single one. This is in spite of local govt subsidies to make sport available for all children (eg contributions are paid for people on low income).

Btw the same does not apply to children from a Surinam background at my dd's riding school there are many children whose parents are from Surinam taking part in competitions.

Dik
A lot of those sports may be totally outside the parent's experience especially if they are first generation immigrants. Whereas my sons' cricket club is very mixed because cricket is a big sport in the Indian sub-continent, the Caribbean and England.

DH is North African and the only team sport he played was football.

'You must be living in a really odd place if the children segregate themselves at play time into religious groups.'

Ours used to, and given a free choice about where they sat, they'd have a Bengali boy group, a Bengali girl group, a Pakistani girl group, a Pakistani boy group and if there were any Pathans in the class, they'd separate into two different sexes and sit as far away from the Bengalis as they could.
Different people have different experiences, I haven't seen that happen in a school since I left the NW of England.

Well... I'm getting a bit bored with this whole debate now. I am very glad I don't live in the Netherlands that's for sure. Maybe I should also be glad I don't live in the NW of England too. I've been in schools in West Yorks with a majority of Pakistanis and some with about an equal mix of English and Pakistani children and they certainly never segregated themselves from each other. Now where I live everyone mixes and attends a variety of extra curricular clubs.

Stressing, no one is suggesting you go and bang on someone's door. I don't know where you live but I can only assume there are very few Muslims there if you struggle to find someone to ask about it. If that's the case you should be very happy and not have much to worry about.

Good night to you all!

Funny, I live in the NW of England. Perhaps segregation is exclusive to here!

greeneggs I expected you to leave. It's the classic run away attitude of muslims when being asked uncomfortable questions.

To you and any other muslims reading this thread, please take some time to read the blog of someone who was far more devout then I ever was and studied Islam in such depth he became an Islamic teacher. His eventual questioning and journey, mirrors very much that of mine. abooali.wordpress.com/chapter-6/

This chapter in particular show exactly why Islam is the reason why IS and other extremists are doing what they are doing and why I and all other decent people should reject such an ideology. abooali.wordpress.com/ch-8/

Actually I live near Heathrow! Also, I have a Muslim man and his men building my house at the moment. I love him! He's great, but I can't ask him anything about his religion as he doesn't speak any English (despite having English born children that range in ages from 8 to 28). How he's managed I've no idea. I know where Pakistan is, but he didn't know where Wales was when we went off on holidays. We get along fine - lots of finger pointing, repetition and nodding. Have not a clue what he makes of us though and can't find out about him. Which is a shame as I would love to know about his life.

Oh and green - before you go, you like many Muslims say they want to encourage people to ask about their religion yet Dik did just that by starting this thread and was quickly branded a racist. Muslims get very defensive it seems when asked to account for their religious manifesto. Is there any wonder there is a stand off between the parties?

Interpretations of the religion are as many as there are leaves on a tree.

For example - the twats holding up banners and protesting against other muslims (and non muslims) having a song/dance/party to celebrate the end of Eid and menacing folks off to a festival in the UK (in todays Times). Who the hell are these guys? Yes, I'd happily tell arses like that to 'sod off to Afghanistan if you want that type of society' but I suspect they wouldn't want them there either.

I have devout folks in my family and some of the shite I hear spouted by so-called muslims is as alien to them/me as the queen doing the can can in the knickers down fleet street.

And yes, some kids do segregate themselves - encouraged by parents (and their bullshit racism) I suspect. And that cuts both ways. I've heard racist crap and jaw droppingly ignorant sweeping statements (ie 'all you white people get drunk on a Friday night') from WASPs and immigrants/converts alike.

Excuse the swears - long and tiring day and my head hurts with all this 'you lot' this and 'you lot' that.

Dik - The only reason I can think if why Turks and Moroccans would stick together, without any racial, cultural, historical, or linguistic common ground would be if the Dutch ostracized them.

The bigotry implicit in Dutch parents trying to leave schools where there are 40% total of immigrant children and calling those schools "black" as opposed to all-Dutch "white" schools makes me feel sick. It's shocking that you seem to think this is normal. No wonder those kids stick together

"I am free to look at any individual and consider them as my equals. But Muslims by the very teaching of Allah are told to reject 'non believers' - they are forbidden from befriending them."

As I have said before, there are many moderate Muslims who don't live like desert dwellers of the year 600. "Muslims" is not a uniform group. Your generalizations are just not true for all Muslims or even for most Muslims.

Everyone needs to listen to and take careful note of MistressMia's words, insight and knowledge.

I feel mixed about much of this and have had very contradicting experiences. I have some devout muslim friends. They pray every day, go to the mosque, fast at ramadan, wear hijab and salwar kameez etc. They have been very friendly and inclusive to me and my children - respect our festivals in that they send us christmas cards and a present, let their children take part in the school nativity etc and invite us to their mosque and some social occasions.

Until I met them the only muslims I knew seemed very moderate/free/western in
their views and lifestyle. Tbh, I don't think my more
strict Muslim friends see the more moderate muslims as proper muslims.

I am interested in how they see the more western uk culture and if they would like to see a more islamic uk where they might feel more comfortable and accepted - but I don't want to be rude even though I do have questions. I must admit since meeting them- I have mixed feelings (positve and negative) about islam where before I was very easy and liberal when my experiences were with more liberal/moderate muslims.

Now I have seen a culture that seems to condobe and ar times encourage arranged/ forcef marriages, rape, domestic abuse and sexism and tbh -it shocked me. I know much of this is cultural but it is seen as being a good muslim to live like this. I know not every strict muslim agrees with this way.