AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

Nuns rebelled! Non RCs please note! :)

I don't really wish to get into a long winded debate on issues like the Banu Qurayza tribe but you can look at that issue and again put your own slant on it depending on how you wish to favour things. So in a nutshell, you can say that lots of people were killed by a baddie warlord or you can say that he had a deal with them, some other people came along and put ideas into the heads of the Banu Qurayza, they all got together and planned to destroy the baddie warlord and all his followers, so the baddie warlord wasn't having any of it. He gave them chances, they were having none of it. And so on and so on.

Anyway, my point is that there are lots of ways of looking at things and interpreting things and I am in no way an Islamic scholar or even have lots of knowledge on these issues so I wont comment further.

As I see it, and I might be wrong, the "tent wearers" do not mix with white British people. I live in a big city and the Muslim women that I see who are covered, except for their eyes, stick together in groups. I live near a multi-racial school and I often see groups of these women standing together and I never see them interacting with the non-covered women. I never saw them at all 5 years ago. The problem with dressing in this way is that, at best, these women may live peacefully side by side their Western counterparts but they will never assimilate into the community because their dress is telling people that their way of life and values are vastly different to those of the majority. I have no reason to doubt that Muslims have huge similarities with other groups in society but differences are huge and for this reason I believe that integration cannot occur. Tolerance perhaps, but social integration, no.

I have come to my conclusions about integration since working with trustees of a local mosque. I respect these people, who incidentally preach peace, but their way of life is so very different to the Western one. I have nothing against them, I just don't think the 2 ways of life are compatible.

Flipflops, sorry I don't understand your two 'straw man' references, unless you are saying Im talking a lot of rubbish.
I cant really help you with regard to finding you a variety of Muslim women to question as we are online. I can only suggest you actually go and ask some. I do know that lots chose to cover, either their hair or their face, I have plenty of friends who do son. I don't know why you wish to not accept that, but that's your choice.

Women who are forced to only go out with a male and so on... these things are dictated by culture and a lack of understanding generally. It is bad for them and I have no idea how the issue can be tackled for older generations, but younger ones have access to internet/talks in mosques etc so I would imagine things will get easier over time.

Oh, and there are plenty of English tent wearers too (as well as a variety of other nationalities).

I knew several mothers that would show me their birth control pills and snigger that their husbands thought they were for 'improving their blood'
Then the men would accept it was the will of God that they only had four or five children. It was a risk for many of those women, but it was available and they took it.

There are explanations of straw man on Google and Wiki. Accusing me of saying you are talking rubbish is another straw man, so it might be worth looking it up to streamline your debating style and remove any pointless hostility. Straw men are very wearing to people who don't use them and can make people give up on an otherwise useful discussion.

You didn't answer my question about work.

And yes I hope things will get easier over time.

I haven't accused you of anything Flipflops, I simply said I didn't know what strawman meant and wondered if it meant I was talking rubbish.

I rather think you are just looking for an argument.

I have no idea why you see what I have written as being 'straw man' but that's fine.

With regards to work, off the top of my head I can think of someone who worked in a school, yes it was an Islamic one but so what and also a bookshop. If you go to Muslim countries you will find women who cover their faces (I assume this is what you are all referring to ) in a whole variety of jobs from medical to street cleaners.

Downbytheriverside, who can blame them really.

Migsy1 - really ?!? You believe that you can purport to tell all Muslims in this country that we can't possibly integrate only be tolerated, cheers, better tell all my non Muslim pals that we aren't actually friends.
What an absolutely shocking statement to make

Who can blame them? You really have to ask that question?
They risked DV, being shunned by their families especially the MIL, and being told what they were doing was haram by those running the local mosques. I didn't blame them, I admired them enormously for finding a way through the restrictions they were bound by.

What Riverside? It was a rhetorical question. I was agreeing with you on the point of birth control, but it seems you didn't take the time to consider that!

You believe that you can purport to tell all Muslims in this country that we can't possibly integrate only be tolerated, cheers, better tell all my non Muslim pals that we aren't actually friends.

I'm not telling anyone anything. I'm expressing my opinion and speaking in general terms. Of course some Muslims and some non-Muslims can be friends. I'm talking about a broader picture of separate communities. Are you denying that there are separate communities or do you think the UK is one homogeneous society?

OK greeneggs we'll leave the issue of the rights and wrongs of killing and torturing opposing factions aside, even though they have surrendered and are prisoners of war. Oddly enough when muslims prisoners such as those in Abu Grhraib or Guantanamo were abused, muslims didn't hold the same view about their captors actions being justified.

What about poets and other verbal dissenters on the second link ?

wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad ?

No doubt you will come back and say that there is dispute about all of those, despite many of the references being recognised authenticated Islamic sources.

I just don't understand this wilful blindness that envelops muslims and their refusal to objectively examine Islam. What saddens me the most is seeing western muslims who live in a society where they are free to question and critique anything, blindly accepting an ideology that holds back and enslaves so many others that live in non-free societies, thus legitimising it further.

Migsy1 - I do think that on the whole the uk is a homogenous community of different people with different views and different religions .

Whilst there are pockets of communities this is hardly unique to Muslims but common with all immigrant communities.
Most people get along fine but surprise surprise they don't make good headlines.
There is no denying there are problems in some places but it's hardly an indictment of all Muslims ability to integrate.
Your statement below hardly helps :
I have no reason to doubt that Muslims have huge similarities with other groups in society but differences are huge and for this reason I believe that integration cannot occur. Tolerance perhaps, but social integration, no.

But luckily I can see that the opinions of a few people don't necessarily match those of everyone else in that 'community' as after all, we are all individuals, even Muslims.

Hey, Dik I'm not a muslim, I was born and bred in Wimbledon. Still think you're a racist.

(Oh, and went to convent school).

Dawndonnaagain - well said !

Dik - nothing like tarring everyone with the same brush eh ?

Tallyballyhoo I'm not trying to help or hinder anyone. Are you saying that what I say should not be said? I believe in the freedom of speech and I am expressing an opinion, which might be a cynical one.

I do not say that I do not want integration. I do not say that I have anything against Muslims. I have not made any negative comments towards Muslims. However, I will not apologise for saying that some cultures are so radically different that fully mixing is difficult.

Dik you are making extremely broad generalisations. I was a muslim until my early 20's and come from a practising run of the mill typical muslim family . At school my friends were those from all backgrounds, races and religions and were predominantly non-muslim.

My nephews who are at school now and who are and whose parents are practising muslims principally have friends who are white and non-muslim. They all hang out doing typical stuff, including celebrating each others festivals.

My mother who was born abroad and is now in her 70's and is conservative enough never to have shaken a mans hand, other than her husbands, prays daily 5x day, fasts in Ramadan and then fasts some more as well, always went to her works Christmas parties and exchanged gifts etc with her colleagues, neighbours etc. For a short period after she retired she did some voluntary work and used to shop for a housebound English lady regularly buying her bacon and alcohol. .... This from a woman who threw out the bottle of wine I was once given as a present and which I had inadvertently left in my room, and goes ballistic whenever I buy any multipack crisps that have the odd bacon flavoured packet or two.

The point is that making generalisations about all muslims in such a way takes away from the more serious issues at hand and leads to the inevitable (and understandable) accusations of racism levelled at you.

Also, I think it depends on where you live. Where I live there is a big Muslim population. In the local community school, the white kids and the Muslim kids don't tend to mix together much. However, in areas that I have lived where there is a smaller Muslim population, there has been much more integration. It is all observational on my part and I'm expressing my own experiences.

Migsy1 you are perfectly entitled to your opinion and I am perfectly entitled to disagree with it.

You state that you think being Muslim and integrating are fundamentally incompatible but don't feel that's a negative comment towards Muslims , Really ?.

You are saying that I cannot possible be part of uk society , not just me, but my children ,my family , my muslim friends and that is not negative ? It's not just negative it's hurtful.
I work, I contribute to the wider society of where I live , I have friends from all different backgrounds and religions but that's not integration enough for you what would be ?

Dik
My Muslim DS1 sings in the school choir and was wandering around the house singing Christmas Carols before the school carol service. All his school friends of a variety of religions sent each other Christmas cards. DS1 also prays every day, did some fasting during Ramadan.

My DC only eat Halal food but given that a number of the children in school are vegetarian (some for religious reasons) there is always a range of options. If there is a cake sale I usually make at least one egg free option as some of the DCs friends are Jains so are lacto veggie.

Why the fixation on Muslim dietary requirements?