AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

Most civilised countries have government agencies which not only gather such data but publish this data as well, surprise surprise...

Well, I'm glad you've got it all figured out Phaedra. And you managed to do it all without even speaking to someone who covers. That's fantastic.

" I do worry about the incompatibility of the Muslim religion with the libertarian West. "

Not all Western Europeans are libertarians and definitely not all Muslims are fundamentalists. (Using the word in its true sense of "those who take their holy book literally" and not as a synonym to "extremist").

There are many moderate, modern Muslims living in the UK who dress like you, party like you, and live like you. You probably don't even know they are Muslim, even if you are introduced to them by name (not all have Arab names).

DikTrom, I think you would find any post fearing Muslims a 'very good post'. It's true, Muslims always have bigger families than indigenous British/Europeans. I don't know any Muslim families that only have 1 or 2 children or any English people with 3 or more. Hmm, maybe Muslims really do plan to take over the world. And they have exclusive tents to help them do so as well!

I have three English girlfriends who have 3 children (with same DH). And I have over a hundred Muslim girlfriends with 1 or 2 children.

Dik
None of the Muslims I know in Britain have more than 3 children most have 1 or 2. However, my best friend at school (an RC school) was one of 5, a second family friend was also one of 5, another family from church had 6 children, another 4...etc

So in my very unscientific survey Catholics seem to be the ones with the larger families (p.s. I have 3 siblings, 2 of us have 2 DC, one 3 and one 4)

Both of you should inform the ONS that their numbers are all wrong ...

Mind you, statistics is not for everybody obviously.

20 years ago, I used to work in an area that was populated with a majority of first generation immigrant families, and the school was over 99% Muslim children, mostly sub continent. The first generation families were large, 5-8 was common and 12 was seen as having been blessed with a lot of children. When those children had famlies of their own, there were very few who chose to have more than 5 or 6, or who stayed in the area as it had very poor housing and high unemployment.
A combination of higher living expectations, understanding of contraception and a better understanding of the choices available for women made having children something that was not left up to God to decide.
If I tracked the children of those children, I'd expect the average number of children in their family to be around 3 or 4.
I'd like a lot more factual evidence, and which specific communities of Muslims are being discussed, rather than random fears and observations.

I have studied statistics

Don't you live

... in Holland?

There is no definition of a 'moderate' Muslim. The Muslim community as you rightly point out is diverse. This makes it impossible for us to understand the religion. What do the Westernised Muslims think and feel? Tell us. What are your aspirations for Britain? What do you really feel about Women in Islam? How can your religion exist alongside the West when its fundamental belief structure opposes it? How is the Muslim blue print for living ever going to be relevant in the West - a blue print that was put together by the warlord Mohammed 2000 years ago and has not been changed or evolved since? Surely even as a moderate Muslim Allah's requirements lie at the heart of your existence and belief. When does a Muslim cease to become a Muslim because they have veered too far to the West in the eyes of the Imam or the Koran?

Do Muslim's really know? And do the ones who try and find out look at the websites I have looked at to try and make some sense of it, because if they do it's not difficult to find bold criticisms of the West, of Western men who are hypocrites, of women who are harlots. Negative propaganda everywhere for all to see yet it's the non Muslim's who are being held to account over their beliefs. It's non Muslim's who are made to feel ashamed, called racists, carry a disease called 'Islamaphobia'. How this is happening I don't know.

If you want to engage in friendly dialogue with Muslims Stressing, it might be a good idea to stop saying things like 'warlord Mohammed'.

He was a warlord. But I do want to engage on good terms with Muslims so I will stop saying it.

Greeneggs you mentioned upthread about not looking at websites in order to form ones opinion about what Muslims think. Absolutely agree with that, as the majority of muslims themselves are not aware of the history and the numerous dictats and specifics of the Quran and Hadiths.

A brief explanation for non-muslim posters: most muslims are not native Arabic speakers. They are taught to read Arabic and recite prayers in the language but almost none have any idea of what they are reading and saying when doing so in Arabic. Islam proscribes that the Quran be read in Arabic and prayers also conducted in the same.

Islam to most children, is taught predominantly in terms of practices and broad beliefs, such as that of monotheism (rather than polytheism), belief in the prophets of the Bible, some of the stories e.g. the Great flood, Moses, Adam & Eve etc etc. Jesus features heavily and is revered as a prophet (but who's message subsequently got distorted, hence the need for Muhammed).

Your average Muslim, in the West at least, grows up thinking Islam is a lot like Christianity and consequently co-opts Christian values such peace, love and forgiveness to others. There are verses in the early chapters of the Quran that preach such things and hence the insistence by Muslims that acts of barbarity and violence are against Islam and that terrorists are not 'real muslims'.

The information on those other websites that non-muslim posters are referring to is alien to virtually all muslims. Some of it is indeed nonsense, but unfortunately a lot of it is not.

My path to abandonment of Islam occurred due to me reading more about 'my faith'. This happened over 25 years ago, pre the Internet. My source material was Islamic literature from Islamic bookshops. Translations and tafsirs (explanations) by accredited muslim scholars assert that much of what is written in 'those websites' is indeed unfortunately correct. The fact that most muslims are ignorant of such teachings or disagree with the interpretation does not mean Islam is not guilty of the messages being used to promote violence and disorder, or hate towards non-muslims or unequal treatment of women and minorities.

It is simply no longer enough to say that 'those verses are taken out of context', 'the extremists have distorted true Islam' etc etc. Such assertion are now hollow. Start critically examining it, like I did without any bias (actually I started with a bias towards it, having being born into the faith). Islam has ruined so many lives already. When it was confined to the East, Westerners didn't much have any reason to care or know about it. Now its on our doorstep, many people are examining it and coming to the conclusion that there is something very wrong with it. Muslims cannot continue to bury their heads in the sand.

Having made the effort to check Dik with the ONS site, you're still talking crap. According to their statistics,
White families with three children or over 519,000
Families of Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani with three children or over: 141, 000.
Even allowing for a minimal decrease in the 'white families' bracket, (let's face it, not all muslims are of Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani descent, are they, and a small decrease in the 'families of Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani descent, because, again, not all those will be muslim, you're talking complete and utter bullshit.
I don't know if you thought, well, if I come on here and try to present the facts and figures in a way that isn't confrontational, I won't look like a racist, well, apart from the fact you slipped a couple of times (witness deleted posts) you just look like a racist. That's because you are.

wrt to the objection warlord, Greeneggs could you perhaps comment on the details on these pages, all of which have Islamic source references:

wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza

wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

Re. the exclusive tent discussion, I don't know any wearers as I don't have kids so only meet male Muslims and moderate women Muslims through work. I don't think the fully covered women are allowed to go to work, are they?

If I did get to know a fully covered woman I think I would want to ask her why she wasn't availing of the laws of this country to express her own individuality and power of self-determination. I would assume that she was covered because the strictures of her own family prevented her from expressing her individuality. If she gave me a reason related to men and their uncontrollable drives I would advise her and her sisters to get their men into line, stat!

I was slightly downcast by AtheistBitch's comment about girls wearing very brief shorts though. I am also atheist and in no way think the underbum-revealing short is a good look. But I would defend any young girl's right to wear silly, revealing clothes over the modest brigade's proposed alternatives. As a protective 50-something I look out for young girls in situations where men might give them trouble because of their fashion choices.

Dawn - I can't see what your figures are getting at. You need to base your argument on the ratio of white families with three or more children compared to the minority communities, not just a head count. There could currently be ten times more non Muslim families in the UK compared to Muslim families.

Flipflops, what makes you think someone who covers isn't allowed to work? Of course they are.

Did it occur to you that she IS availing the laws of this country that allow her to express her individuality by choosing to cover. Lots of women chose to cover because they want to, for a number of reasons. It is of course true that lots of women are also not so lucky and have a very restrictive way of life in terms of what they can do and how they can dress. However, all you have to do is go to the Relationship threads on here and discover that there are many women of all background, with and without religion who spend their life treading on eggshells and being told what they can and cant do by members of their family ranging from parents to partners.

Depends again, many of the mothers in the families I knew were not permitted to leave the home without a male relative, and not allowed to work. They didn't cover up fully, but their lives were very restricted by the interpretation of Islam their communities followed.
Their daughters had a different lifestyle for the most part, unless send back to the home country to be married into a traditional family.

I also agree that the laws in this country allow its citizens and visitors a huge amount of freedom and choice as to how they choose to dress, and I'd hate to see it undermined.

But we are encouraged to do something about this in Western Culture Green - women are encouraged to speak up. Do you think Islamic women are brainwashed into thinking it's for their own good? A Western feminist would be more inclined to say that men go around blind folded if they can't trust themselves to behave appropriately around females, and not that they 'take the shame'.

That view is not for anyone, which is why I am perfectly accepting to the Hijab. I can see - but don't agree - with the other side. To me the personal expression of Islam is just that. A personal thing. What I am concerned with is the grass roots teachings that could be accused of forcing or brainwashing people into their behaviours. It's just a Mistress has said, Muslim's should take a step back before they blindly follow their faith. It should be questioned and analysed. Is it, or is taken on board through fear and ignorance?

Where are the Muslim women who can help here? I thought this thread - hats off to Dik for starting it as well - would provoke a huge response.

Wow (as a muslim women ) what a depressing thread to read.
How can people think it's ok to refer to how some women choose to dress as tents ? So derogatory.
You might not agree, you might not like , but so what ??.
How does it affect you ? - I don't like what lots of people wear or like tattoos or various hairstyles doesn't mean I think it's ok for me to decide for other people what they should or should not be allowed to wear or choose to do. It's my problem, not theirs.
I don't wear a niqab, but that doesn't mean I don't respect another's right to do so, if that's what she feels she wants to do for her own personal religious reasons - and it must be quite a hard thing to do in this society where women receive negative comments and treatment by doing so.
Just do not understand why people are so disrespectful of a women's choice and if you spoke to them you would probably find that it is their choice , just like its a women's choice to wear as little as she wants - I can't see why it's a problem for her to wear as much.

Nuns have traditionally worn a long habit and covered their head, never married no one feels that is a bad thing or something to be despised, for some Muslim women it's how they want to express their religion, it feels right for them, and really has nothing to do with anyone else.

You might not like my religion, that's your choice but to somehow imply that by being Muslim I am incompatible with living in this country well quite frankly you can jog on - I am Muslim, I work, I have friends from different religions and atheists ( they respect my views and I respect theirs ) and guess what I only have 2 kids and have no plans to take over the world .

Also I am really not that unusual, my other Muslim friends/ acquaintances seem to be similar - just normal people. Not scary at all.

Gosh greeneggs, your post was all kinds of straw man.

Point by point:
There is no "what makes me think", it was a sincere question. I have never met a woman in full head and face covering at work, in three decades. I would (sincerely) like to know what public work they do.

The first part of your second paragraph makes me more sympathetic to the French banning law. Because I think it sounds hollow and defensive and frankly I would not take your word for it but would need a one-on-one discussion with the woman in question, without anyone else present, before I would accept a "choice" argument.

The Relationship threads reference is the real straw man but yes, of course the world is full of dysfunction and arseholery that is definitely not the preserve of one religion, class or indeed gender. It's not completely germane to this discussion, but I sincerely believe that the freedoms we currently enjoy in western Europe are the optimal situation for dealing with these problems arising in any context. I think our written laws are culturally better for being overtly protective of people in situations of domestic abuse. Don't you?