AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

This thread disgusts me, more and more as the days go on.

I have totally no problem addressing me with 'Dik'. Dik is a normal Dutch first name.

Quivering, meant no offense to OP by using the first part of Mumsnet nickname as is customary.

I was in Birmingham the other day and there were far more women in full veils walking around than I would usually see in my home city.

I find the reconciling of certain views with my own (white British atheist and feminist) quite difficult.

DH commented on the need for women to protect themselves from the male view and what an offensive statement that made about men, especially in that culture and also made a joke as to what they might think of me, walking around in my shorts and vest top which made me a bit uncomfortable too.

dik the muslim woman does not care what you think of her niqab. She has the right to choose what to wear.

The muslim woman in the UK has every right to wear a niqab and practice her religion in a way that she chooses. That does not make her an extremist. You very much sound like a bigot and an extremist.

Dik
It might surprise you that my Muslim DH also dislikes the niqab but respects a woman's choice to wear one.

DikTrom

How does having a scarf on your head impede free communication?

I stick to my wearing a scarf and niqab and I am fully intergrated in to society. I have a job, money a house, I pay tax, my children go school.

I don't seperate myself from western society. I go out with my colleagues and my friends, so please tell me how this is not intergrating in to society? In the area I live in you will find that the people not actively participating are the white people on benefits.

What a loss for those poor muslim women not to have a racist bigot in their lives.

Women wearing veils can be just as bigoted and racist as anyone else. Not eyeballing anyone in particular (ok well yes I am). I have heard crap spouted (from women) about how awful western women are, how dreadful the un-scarved/veiled tarts are etc.

I don't mind women covering up - I don't agree that it is a religious necessity - but choice, eh? I do not like the face covered though. It is a tradition from Saudi, just that, and I think it does cut women off from 'outsiders'. The masks scare me though (all mask do). Traditionally in the UK covering the face is seen as having something to hide, being sinister - a bit like wearing sunglasses is bloody rude when talking to people in some other parts of the world.

An elderly relative would wear a scarf at home but never in London. She said the whole thing was so that you didn't stand out and make people stare at you. Sensible mamajoon.

It depends how you were taught/brought up.

And as for nuns - I've met many a nice one but everyone I know who was taught by them (or any other religious types tbh) has really had an awful time.

'dik the muslim woman does not care what you think of her niqab. She has the right to choose what to wear. '

As long as she lives in a country that allows women that level of freedom. I'd hate to see this country change its laws to dictate what is permissable and what is not with regards to clothing.

People have the right to wear what they like. Personally, I am horrified by face-covering but take no notice of scarves.

I was taught by nuns in full medieval rig who changed to knee-length skirts and short, hair-revealing veils in the course of my school years.

I guess in my younger years everything was changing radically and it depresses me to see women in a free country like ours adopt styles which explicitly cater to male fear and prejudice. It just seems retrograde.

Dik You say that you feel uncomfortable around women who are completely covered. Would you also feel uncomfortable around other groups such as punks who are covered in safety pins and have sticking up bright hair; or a group of teenage Goths; or maybe a group of dressed up people on their way to a Star Wars convention?

I'm not passing judgement either way. This is a genuine question.

Also, like Flipflops I was taught by nuns 30 years ago and even then they wore skirts that were just below the knee. I'm rather irritated by people making comparisons with nuns because I haven't seen a nun dressed in habits and veils for decades!

No. Mind you, I don't come across many punks nowadays, but I have never come across a punk covering his face. I have no problem with bright hair, as said before you don't communicate with your hair as such. I don't mind Goths, I can see their full face. Don't know about Star Wars convention because I haven't come across them. However, if people are obviously dressing up for a special occasion, say Halloween, and they ring the doorbell for Trick-o-Treat I will give them sweets obviously. Quite a different situation compared with people who are on a daily basis hiding their face.

Question to you: Why do you not want to show your face? Do you really thing that it will arouse men and that those men cannot control their desires?

Here's a reasoned, well argued article by a Muslim female journalist arguing against full veil.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibbaibrown-sixteen-reasons-why-i-object-to-this-dangerous-coverup-2261444.html

To object to full veil (I mean face covering niqab, burka etc) doesn't necessarily mean you're a bigot or Islamaphobe.

Where I work I see nuns quite a bit. Some do still wear the 'full monty' but its rare nowadays.

I think the whole covering the face is commonsense if you live somwehere bloody hot and dusty like... the desert. It's a traditional garment which has become the 'uniform' to a variety of degrees.

I have heard some of my ME relatives describe it as dressing like a Saudi, as where they live has its own very rich culture of language, arts, science, history, literature, poetry, music, cuisine...etc and islam is seen as an imported culture/religion. It wasn't all that long ago that they lived side by side with christians, jews, pre-christian/islamic faiths, etc. The kids went to convent schools, and these were mixed classes. It's a lot different there now. I do wonder about women who choose to veil in the UK - if they have lived in a regime where they have no choice to wear or not (or risk being arrested by some spotty teen 'morals police').

All about choices and common sense.

Yes, it all goes back to the desert which is how my mother explained when we were children why Jews and Muslims cut the genitals of their sons and prohibit certain foods (the ones that might go off in the desert). It made a lot of sense in the desert 2000 years ago but is absolutely ludicrous today and if there is a God i bet she despairs of it.

So the Muslim and other women who cover should be aware many of us regard it as retrograde and affecting other women if they do it although many of us are happy to live in a society where women can wear dungarees, go almost naked, wear short skirts and high heels or totally cover (always the women of course - the man get of Scot free in all cultures do as they please even up to having multiple wives - all very very sexist).

I don't think there is any chance we will follow France with its clothing ban so there is nothing to worry about. I do want us to continue to be free to have threads like this even if feminists or muslims atheists or jews get upset by them as it is more important the debate is permitted than we tip toe around the feelings of others all the time. The right of free speech is one of the best ways we can ensure muslims and other religious people will or may become atheist and adopt feminist values (and the other way round - they show us their "better" way). It is only by talking to each other as on this thread and elsewhere that people understand each other. Peace is all about communication and mixing and being amongst each other rather than separate and other and apart.

Multiple wives - it's not only for muslims...! I agree that the men mostly do not feel that sharp end of the various rules and regulations.

I was wondering when nuns would be dragged into this. I haven't seen a nun in a full habit for decades and have never seen a nun whose face was covered.

dragged?

Poor nun always get a shout on threads about... religious 'threads' (haha)

You can kiss a nun once....

...you can kiss her twice....