AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

gosh thanks for clearing that up, I did have a look at the link as was a bit can you read what it says? Is it a fairly innocuous flag that's been misinterpreted?

pheadra I don't find modest dress offensive. Even 'good' Christians are asked to dress modestly. So are Jehovah witnesses. Is it the fact that's legs and arms are covered too? I really don't see that as a problem or to honest any concern.

I've seen some beautiful hijabs and to be honest I think they accentuate the face. Well it does on my work friend.

Niqabs and burkas I don't like as they have such negative connotations. I think seeing a woman in these two can seem extreme.

There were actually massive battles fought, Gosh.

Please don't belittle what British and other European women did to gain the amount of freedom they have. Men are never inclined to give away power without a struggle in my experience.

Well, not battles in the sense of women being stoned to death, executed or honour killed for shaming their families. Not in the last couple of hundred years. Although one of the accusations brought against Joan of Arc was wearing men's clothing.
But yes, significant battles over the rights of women to choose what they wear have been fought and won.
It's the same rights that women who want to fully cover are using to support their right to do so.

Flip - are you really claiming that modern women's dress is entirely the result of feminist struggle? I must have missed the Battle for Stilettoes, or the War for the modern day girdle. I never realised Vogue was a key feminist text either.

Trousers. Not having to cover your knees, or ankles. Being allowed to wear a bikini on the beach.

Trousers with...front zips instead of a side zip.

I am seeing more

(Flippin phone!) More

(Argggg phne - I'll be quick)

More women covered totally, even fabric over the eyes. I am in an area with loads of ME folks flocking over for the summer. The trendy gals wear trousers, tunic and end hilda ogden-style turbans (loads of makeuo and jewellery). So I guess no-one has the 'definitive' dress guide.

Don't be facile, Gosh. Just read some feminist history.

And stop belittling; yours isn't the only culture deserving of respect, surely?

flip has a point!

Flip - I am British. So are most Muslims in this country.

Also, I am not being facile, just pointing out that the idea that modern dress is entirely the result of feminist battles is clearly untrue.

Nice name - yes, Muslim women's dress is very varied. Although you get complaints about that too, as the same hand-wringers who don't like Muslim women wearing black, don't like hijabi fashion either.

We will have to agree to disagree, Gosh. My birth religion wanted me to sit apart from the men and wear black lace on my head. My generation soon put the kybosh on that and a lot of their other peculiar notions.

We owe it to women not to be defined by men's irrational notions of decency. Actually Greengrow put it best above, about sighing and weeping inside.

Yes, dress is a very politlical and feminist issue. We owe it to women not to be defined by men's irrational notions of decency as mentioned above. This is why the personal is often political rather than just a free choice. That is what many many feminist women will be thinking every time they see a covered woman including by the way orthodox Jewish women too and any Christians who cover. If women's bodies are regarded as so disgusting by God she/he would not have created them as they are. It is arguably an insult to God to cover and if covering is so great let the men cover up or skulk indoors hiding their flesh.

However I still go down on the side of live and let live along with free speech to try to convert those we think are wrong. As soon as you start banning things you start being as bad as all those Muslim nations like Saudi and Iran and we become as bad as they are. We are better than that.

Also many religious people and atheists are inherently good. They seek to show others how to live by their example of tolerance, consideration, respect and being kind to others rather than the eye for an eye, revenge, violence elements some people seem to have across many cultures and religions.

Sikh men cover their hair; are they oppressed?

OP do you really think Muslim parents want to see their children radicalised? Children they love and have nurtured? I know of quite conservative Muslims who banned a well know radical preacher from coming to their mosque because they didn't want him spreading poison to their children. Ask yourself why these young people are so disenchanted and how do we deal with that?

There are over 1bn Muslims in the world. Consequently a tiny percentage of radicals will still seem like a large number.

We owe it to women not to be defined by men's irrational notions of decency

Yes.

I wore an abaya in Saudi Arabia. As a West Indian brought up in shorts and t-shirts, tagging about with my brothers, I felt silenced, at once invisible and conspicuous,, defined (and found lacking) by my gender and, to be perfectly honest, afraid.

I agree that battles have been fought by European feminists to ensure women have the right to dress appropriately for their choices and not those dictated by religion or male relatives.

I am no historian so do correct me if I am wrong BUT I understood that women's dresses got shorter following the end of WW1. It was because women had needed to do traditionally men's jobs and skirt lengths were hitched up in order to make work life easier. After that, the 1920s fashions reflected the emancipation that women achieved during the war.

However, this is evidence that long robes are not practical. Also, I agree that stiletto heels are not practical either!

Do you mean head covered or face covered? Would you refuse to deal with a Sikh in a turban or a Jewish woman in a sheital or scarf?

DIK - "I find it deeply unpleasant to be surrounded by women who are fully veiled/ wearing niqabs/burka's. There are lots of them walking around Regent's Park and Edgeware Road."

WTF? So these women should dress how exactly? what do you want them wearing? Muslim women can wear what they damn well like and its none of your business.
Why is it "deeply unpleasant" to be "surrounded" by them?

I have read some of your posts here and on other threads and tbh you come across as a deeply unpleasant, bigot who hates muslims.

nuns?

I would not allow my children to be taught by a teacher who has her head covered, same with a doctor, as I consider that it impedes free comunication

Dik, could you clarify - do you mean fully veiled. niqabs or burka type thing where the face is covered? Or do you mean hijab (covering of the hair with a scarf)?

I would agree with you if you meant the first one, but not the second.

As it happens I am not surrounded by nuns. Never have been. I would never send my dc to a school run by nuns though and I have never across a medic who is a nun.

You may like to be surrounded by people who want to be fully covered up, but as it happens I don't. That is why I would never go to places like Saudi Arabia, the Jemen etc.

I believe that facial expressions tell as much if not more than verbal expressions. This involves the whole face, including forehead and chin. People who decide to cover this all may obviously do so, I choose to have nothing to do with them.

Covering only the hair I don't mind, as you don't generally communicate with your hair, unless your skinhead or punk.

But Ancient Rome was a multicultural society that meshed almost everything under its own banner to make it Roman - pretty much all of its deities and stories and activities are warped versions from elsewhere. It's decline is partially attributed to when the elite's view of Rome - and Romans - became too fixed that it destroyed their ability to grow their influence to other groups which were able to grow and fight back. As that quote is about following the customs of the local church rather than an actual place, it would have even less sense in modern Britain.

No society survives without change - and Arab (and other Muslim) countries are no more static and monolithic than British and other European or Anglo-societies. I would say that Britain today is more affected by changes in US society than anything in the Muslim world.

Research shows that conservative/extremism been growing over the last decade in pretty much all ideologies. From Abrahamic faiths (all of them) to xenophobic hate groups, they're all are growing more conservative and extreme - and those groups are converting more than other groups. Why this is is up for debate, other than it benefits those on top to create such division and so most systems within society facilitate as has been done for centuries.

I cover my hair with a cloth cap whenever I go out or want to look nice because it's far easier than dealing with the frizzy poof that my hair naturally goes into - and it's become my way of completing an outfit. I belong to no religious group and while older members of my family all did it, it's far more part of Anglo culture than my Metis culture. I get amazed at how many people freak out over a bit of cloth they aren't even wearing as if it will destroy civilization when I just want to keep my hair out of mine and everyone else's face to the point they'll attack us for it (which I have had happen).