AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

I don't know about a rise in extremism but I am starting to think that Muslim values and traditions are so different to "Western" ones that community cohesion will never happen which is a very depressing thought.

I agree with everything Goshanne said.

I absolutely reject the 'have we been too tolerant' etc comment in the OP as I have mentioned in my previous post.

I've worked in MH in prisons and radicalisation of young men who were previously not devout Muslims or indeed not Muslim at all - (and in increasing numbers - white British people) is an issue.

The OP chose to ignore this to make further comment about 'people we've given hospitality to trying to bomb us'.

Many extremist Muslims in the UK were not brought up in an 'extremist' family or environment, a Muslim country or even in the faith itself.

Dismissing the issue of Islamic extremists as 'those foreigners that we tried to help as we are oh so benevolent' is BS which is ignoring the fact that so many extremists were born here.

Until we try to explore exactly why mostly young people feel that Islamic extremism resonates with them and seems to offer them more than their own families and society does then we won't get anywhere.

I reject that Muslims should face collective responsibility, or collective punishment. We would not accept this for any other group in society, so why should Muslims be singled out for such treatment?

Absolutely.

This is why I found, and still find the threads on Mumsnet on the question of anti-semitism so very shocking. Demonizing and 'othering' groups is wrong and dangerous. We all need to reach out across communities.

migsy the majority of muslim women, just like any other race,religion ect are just the same as us.

They worry about their kids, work, get excited about festive holidays - just like us. Have a look at the muslim tea room threads. It's full f normal women, just like other non muslim women.

We can all get along.

People seem so blinkered that they can't even read a simple question.

However, to tackle a problem you first have to acknowledge that there is a problem. That seems to be quite an issue for quite a few posters as their view seems to be that problems can never have anything to do with Muslim groups, Islamist extremists, etc. it is always somebody else's fault, the Jews of course, and America of course. Bit of a simplistic view, then again simple souls, simple views ...

To be fair dikTrom you haven't answered my question.

What would you do? Posters have agreed with you there is a problem with extremism. Just like there is a problem with every other crank that seeks to hurt, destroy and oppress. You can't just say it's Muslims. Look around the world. There are extremists every where.

I think your views are stopping you see the bigger picture.

The governments will be doing a lot more than you think so I don't think you need to whip your self in to a frenzy.

the documentary I mentioned really does address that there is a problem... and analyses it. Very thought provoking.

With respect OP, I am not 'blinkered', I have first hand experience and am freely acknowledging the issue.

I reject your view that extremists are usually migrants who have been 'given hospitality'. I have said that many extremists that pose a threat in Europe were born here. You are choosing to ignore my posts - perhaps because they don't fit in with your views.

I have worked with community leaders and Imams who take the time (without recompense) out of their lives to come into prisons or other environments to try to 'talk people out' of extremist views and promote the true tenets of Islam so you are incorrect in saying 'Muslim leaders are remaining silent'.

Extremism among mostly young people not brought up in a Muslim society needs addressing. But to do that we need to explore what it is that they feel extremism offers them. People do not normally risk their liberty or lives on a whim.

I'm glad to hear that imams are being proactive mrs , sounds positive and the British public need to hear more about it.

You last paragraph was spot on.

And I also agree with softlys last post. Having worked in Muslim communities for years - Muslim women are the same as other women - the same worries and concerns.

I have seen many, many happy, supportive and equal relationships even in the more traditionally 'devout' communities. Even in communities where FGM was performed on the woman in her country of origin but she is 100% against it when it comes to her children and her husband supports that view.

I think the biggest 'leveler' is children. I've worked with families from the UK, Ethiopia, Kenya, Afghanistan, Iran, Somalia, Somaliland, Albania, Kurdistan and more...ALL the children are the same when you go in as an 'outsider'; often shy at first but gradually want to talk to you, want you to play and before you know it, they're crawling all over you!.

I've had children from all backgrounds (when they know me well enough) climb on me and have a cuddle. ALL children are the same (if NT) it's what happens as they grow up that causes Religious or cultural differences.

Fundamentally as humans, we're all the same. I don't think any one group is more of a threat than others. There are problems and extremism in any group is worrying but I hate this 'us and them over there who are different and threatening' attitude.

I think a lot of it stems from people who actually have no experience of those communities. We're often afraid of what we don't know or understand.

Sorry Softly - cross posted us both agreeing with each other!.

Hopefully we won't be accused of anything..

There is always hope mrs!

That seems to be quite an issue for quite a few posters as their view seems to be that problems can never have anything to do with Muslim groups, Islamist extremists, etc. it is always somebody else's fault, the Jews of course, and America of course

I most definitely think there is a problem with radicalization. Is it possible to object to Israel/the US and think there's a problem with radical Islam?

I am extremely appalled, for example, by the children who have died in Iraq because they are Christian.

But. But, but but. Iraq is a failed state. Why is that?

No doubt the fault of the Jews and the US???

Where have I said anything about the Jews? I have mentioned Israel. Is there not a distinction?

Do you disagree that Iraq is a failed state because of the US?

Obviously this is just London trending before the rest of the country,

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/flag-isis-jihadi-islamic-state-flown-poplar-east-london

Still, let's not point the finger because of the Christian crusades, and in true mumsnet fashion let's use anecdotal evidence as fact when the situation warrents.

I would also add, a huge problem is that religious conservatism and religious extremism are not the same, yet they are often used interchangeably and this is very unhelpful.

An SAHM, who wears niqab could be described as religiously conservative, that does not mean she's an extremist, let alone a violent extremist.

Obviously, I am Muslim, so I might be somewhat biased here, but we are by and large, a very normal bunch. I do wonder what people think we do that is so strange and different. I'm sat here on my laptop writing this, my husband's watching tv...just like MNers across the country.

Do you like any Muslims at all DikTrom? Maybe just the ones who have no real interest and are happy to behave like the non Muslims?

Also, what is your fascination with Jews/USA?

I do wonder what people think we do that is so strange

Well since you're asking, I think you mentioned wearing a hijab. And I do find that strange. This thread isn't really about this but yes I find head coverings/modest clothes/ full body covering very strange.

What's strange about wearing a scarf and modest clothing?

Not concerned so much about the Uk but many muslims are concerned. I have friends from muslim countries who are worried at the mood and changes they are seeing.

My granny wears a head scarf in the winter pheadra is she strange? I also wore one when it was very hot on holiday?

Other faiths wear modest clothes, why is that strange?

For many of us our ancestors fought huge battles to remove clothing restrictions on women and win the vote. Ify ou look at Victorian clothing in the UK which is the history of most of us and the awful effect it had on women - they could not use bicycles, they could not do proper sports, they were limited and restricted in ways men could not. It was a huge discrimination and major issue in the uk which women fought and fought against. In the 1800s it was regarded as offensive to show your ankles. We had massive battles to win the right to talk around in T shirts and shorts and indeed be nude in appropriate places. That ability not to be more restricted by clothes than men are is a big issue for many women wanting fairness and parity with men so every time we see a woman who is covered we sigh and weep inside, I' m afraid.

(I also of course know all the contrary arguments and that you could argue high heels are like foot binding or indeed the burka and have the same effect although in the City jobs these days most women wear trousers and flat shoes and can run and work free as men are)

However I am a libertarian . I would never want us to ban clothing like France has done. Let people wear what they like and let us be free to mock,d raw cartoons and seek through gentle persuasion and example to show them that our way, the earlier battles found by women 100 years ago , is the better way (and indeed they argue the opposite).

Greengrow - people did not fight "massive battles" over clothing, what hyperbole. Clothing has changed for many reasons, generally due to different lifestyles, but also due to the rise of the fashion industry and consumerism.

"Our ancestors" - urrgh, the racial superiority you feel so comfortable asserting is very grim.

Just another lurker- I hate to break it to you, but ISIS didn't invent the Arabic language, nor are they the sole originators of flags with Arabic calligraphy on them. The flag in the photograph is not an ISIS flag. "Just London trending before the rest of the country", what a ridiculous statement.

When I started teaching, most schols didn't permit women to wear trousers. I'm rather pleased that pressure for equal rights has enabled that particular change in the rules.

*My granny wears a head scarf in the winter pheadra is she strange? I also wore one when it was very hot on holiday?

Other faiths wear modest clothes, why is that strange?*

There is a world of difference between wearing a hat or scarf because of the weather and permanently covering up no matter what.

As for other faiths, actually yes I find the whole idea of "modest" dress strange and to be honest rather offensive. However which other faith goes to the extreme of covering the whole of a woman's face ?