AIBU to get annoyed when asked my marital status when leaving a message?

[peanutbutterandbanana]

GGGRRRR - I used to get this in the last century... you make a call and the person answering needs you to leave a message, so you give your details and they say 'Miss or Mrs?'. My marital status is unnecessary and a man would certainly not be asked to confirm his personal home setup.

I've just called someone who runs an employment agency and I know her quite well. She's a one-woman-band so obviously uses one of these answering services, so I had to spend ages spelling my name out, detailing whether I was an individual or a company and then asked 'is it Miss or Mrs?', "Irrelevant," I said.

But my blood is now boiling. I cannot believe that we are well into the 21st Century and this question is still being asked when it is absolutely not relevant to this call or to my potential employment or to anyone else, in fact, apart from me and my OH/DP/DH. AIBU?

I'm also not keen on people with doctorates calling themselves Dr. Sounds a bit pretentious anywhere other than a CV. Yes, some 'titles' do give off a wiff of pretention and in the scale of importance when choosing which feminist battle to fight, it's way down the list.

numpties, you can lol! and smiley all you like. I stand by what I said and the issue of women's titles is a 'real cause', even if it's not one you care about.

I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on what you would say/do/think if your daughters wanted to discuss the 'Ms' thing with you.

So women shouldn't call themselves Dr if they earn the title, and they shouldn't call themselves Ms if they prefer not to be identified by marital status, Numpties? Women should be Miss or Mrs, if they don't want to be eye-rolled-internally by you?

How tiresome is this concept of a 'scale of importance' and 'things to worry about' hierarchy. I for one can worry about at least two and sometimes, on a good day, three things at once. But maybe that's because I've got a doctorate

my daughters can do whatever they please, I've raised them to be independent free thinkers.
I have also raised them to distinguish the difference between words and actions. And that what we do, how we behave, is massively more important than what we say.

I'm sure you're a great mum numptie and I hope you and your children enjoy many robust discussions about this and other feminist issues in the future.

Oh, I've taught mine that words matter really quite a lot. Seeing as how they have a relationship to what they purport to describe and the intentions and motivations of those who use them.

actually the Dr. I was thinking of was a guy I used to work with. And no, my dislike of 'Dr' isn't sexist, it applies to both men and women.
If you're a medical Doctor or an academic, I can understand why it becomes relevant then.
The guy i worked with was a product manager for a medical company and had a doctorate in philosophy. He also signed off emails with a list of his qualifications. I have professional and postgraduate qualifications too, but don't use them publically unless it's necessary, ie. if requested by a prospective employer. It seems a bit arsey to continually reference your qualifications when they haven't been asked for.

I agree with Dr.Original. Words matter enormously.

Of course words bloody matter. They are the fundamental underpinning of, well, everything, innit.

yes of course they matter. But not as much as what we actually do. Hence the phrase 'actions speak louder than words'
Because they do. Deafeningly so.

Some of us can multitask, and so can take on more than one feminist battle at once;

Especially as they are all symptoms of the same issue, and by chipping away at the smaller/simpler ones, we're simultaneously dealing with the ones that seem insurmountable.

And some of those battles are with those who simultaneously assert that '[Ms] doesn't mean anything' and '[it] conjures up image of maiden aunt with chip on shoulder.' Which suggests that to you, it does have meaning.

But then you seem to have an issue with people's titles that don't tell you about women's personal lives anyway, given your antipathy to 'Dr'. How do you feel about 'Professor?'

I'd suggest that 'Mrs' is wanky, pretentious and unnecessary, in my view, as every time it is used it shouts 'I found a man! He married me! And it's so important to me that I want the insurance company and the council to know about it!'

Except I'm not an arsehole and I know that other people look upon the title differently and have different attatchments to the title, as I do to Ms, and I'm willing to tolerate that and even not roll my eyes when people use it. But that's what 'Mrs' conjures up for me.

how ironic to preach tolerance and understanding of the various titles people use, before saying that Mrs. conjures up a list of dismissive,unkind things.
How very aibu forum on Mumsnet!

I don't think women on this thread are preaching tolerance and understanding - what, for a requested title? More respect and courtesy.

I think Jassy's post was honest without being unkind. And she clearly is not an arsehole.

You know how you don't think words are important, numpties? I mean, that's your prerogative, but at least try reading all the ones that are there in Jassy's post fgs.

If Ms was the standard title for adult women, perhaps a lot of married women wouldn't actually bother using Mrs.

It's just that right now, they probably see that they have the choice between Miss Jones and Mrs Smith and convention is that they call themselves Mrs Smith.

If normal convention was that they called themselves Ms Jones, without any baggage/connotations etc, you know - just like men, then perhaps many would just do that.

Jassy - YOU ROCK!

Nit, you haven't read my posts properly because I did NOT say words aren't important. But I do chuckle when people deliberately misunderstand or deliberately misquote, to make their point seem somehow more valid. If you go back and read what I ACTUALLY wrote, as opposed to what you interpreted, you'll clearly see that I acknowledged the importance of words, but said that actions speak louder.

Love it vivacia!

numpties I am guessing you didn't read the bit of the thread where OP talked about Miss/Mrs and employment rights. For this reason alone, I think it matters a lot.

But personally, I also don't see why I have to be some man's appendage (whether husband, or father). I am married, and did it in a white dress, and with an aisle, etc etc, and still feel that way.

I agree we need one common title for women that has nothing to do with marital status in the same way that men have Mr.

This is the 21st century, we no longer have laws that make women the possession of a man. But while we still have titles that reflect a woman's marital status, it reinforces the idea that men are superior and women are still defined by their relationship with a man.

And while actions can speak louder than words, in many cases the words are needed in conjunction with the actions as they define the actions. Actions can easily be misinterpreted without that definition.

Well, as far as I can tell, 'actions speak louder than words' is a turn of phrase, an aphorism. I'm not denying that it may have some truth, but I think to use it to argue that things like being able to choose your title without people potentially passing judgement aren't that important is, to say the least, flawed.

Words are extremely important because they are very often not neutral. They reveal and perpetuate society's and individuals' prejudices and preferences. And in our society there are a great many of them that reveal a great deal about what we think of women.

Just look at (someone's mentioned this here already) 'spinster' and 'bachelor'. The first is an object of pity and derision. The second is a lifestyle to envy or aspire to.

The fact that women's traditional titles reveal their marital status where men's don't speaks volumes and is worth taking a stand against. This does not mean that feminists can't also be concerned about other feminist issues. It is both possible and OK to be concerned about more than one thing.

Oh numpties. I think you missed the true irony there.

I said that's what Mrs conjured up for me - just as you shared what Ms conjures up for you. Except that I recognise that Mrs has meaning for other people, unlike your views on 'Ms' - you'll note I quoted you directly on that one.

You also said 'This is rrqlly a non subject, isn't it?' - what did you mean by that? That titles don't mean anything? That other people's opinions on titles don't mean anything?

I do find people's insistence on using titles that indicate their correct marital status odd, because I don't think it really matters, but obviously it matters to them or they wouldn't use it.

Will you think that your daughters are wanky and/or pretentious if they use Ms or Dr when they are adults, out of interest?

'Actions speak louder than words' to me means, there's no point professing your love/commitment/intentions if you then go and behave in a way completely undermining what you've said you think or feel.

It doesn't mean that we shouldn't think about the associations with the individual words we use. So if you said: 'I am not a racist at all and I deplore discrimination' but then you put a picture of a gollywog on your desk, your actions would be speaking louder than your words. Likewise, if instead of doing that, you referred to picaninnies or little coloured girls, those words would speak much louder than your first ones, too!

I've already answered the question about my daughters. I refer you upthread.
I am openly polite and respectful about the titles people use, but can't help an involuntary cringe at Ms. and someone working in an office with a philosophy doctorate referring to himself endlessly as Dr. It's quite true. He is. But the title is hardly relevant in the context of what he does. I just don't see how Ms. or Mrs. adds anything to the feminist debate and is not a battle I'm fighting. Or if I was, it would be right down the list..

And how is 'Mrs' relevant in the context of what you do?

No, you said they could do whatever they please - you didn't say how you'd feel about it. If you're not going to cringe every time you hear it - why are your daughters different from other women?

People have explained why this matters, particularly in the context of employment. If you don't hear that, or it's uncomfortable for you to re-examine your own prejudices towards particular titles, that's your prerogative.

The fact that you cringe at a title that doesn't give you information about a woman's marital status says something quite interesting, though I can't pinpoint exactly what the issue is.