AIBU, to be concerned about increasing anti-semitism throughout Europe

[DikTrom]

Yesterday's Sunday Times had a number of articles about increased anti-semitism in the UK. Same is happening in the Netherlands and even more so in France and Germany.

OK, perhaps Russa was a bad example - but you understand I meant a non Arab country, not the US or the UK, someone very impartial

Piglet, as I said it would be Egypt plus one other country and they have to be let back. To address the right of return, 5 litres will not fit into a 2 litre jug, it simply won't fit. Unless you are suggesting the Jews are allowed the right if return too?

And where on earth did I suggest ethnic cleansing? Please stop reading what you want to rather than what I have written.

PigletJohn

As it is Israel's aim to occupy the whole of the former Palestine, and to cleanse it of all traces of its former inhabitants, then I am sure Israel would approve of a plan to empty Gaza of these troublesome people.

Really? I don't agree with much of what Israel does, including its current attack on Gaza, but I don't think they have actually declared such a plan (apart from a few right-wing extremists possibly). 20% of the Israeli population are non-Jewish.

WRT to the right of return for Palestinians, I am all for it in principle but in practice I don't know how it would work if five million or people all wanted to go and live in Israel, which is already quite densely populated. Maybe it would work on the basis that not everyone would want to (just as not all Jews want to go and live in Israel) and compensation could be offered as well. I also believe that countries such as Lebanon should offer Palestinians and their descendants full citizenship and not bar them from working in many professions. Not that this lets Israel off the hook for human rights before you shout 'whataboutery'.

And sorry OP again for derailing your thread.

I haven't read this whole thread.

But I wonder, why has a thread about anti-Semitism in Europe turned into a debate over Israel. One is a group of people defined by ethnicity and religion; the other is a nation state. They are not one and the same.

Crescent, I'm not Israel. That is not what needs to happen, it has to be done for peace not for a land grab. It needs to be overseen.

I find it depressing that people keep purposefully derailing my thread.

As Mintyy said, there isn't much that can be said without discussing the wider issues.

It doesn't help that some people call out 'anti-semitism' when Israel's actions are criticised.
There has been much complaint about Russia's recent actions. Would you put that down to 'anti-slavism'? What's the difference?

Quivering, the topic has been derailed and posters are passionate about their views. This has led to a number of deletions for posts that may be anti-Semitic or personal attacks. There has also been a fair bit of misunderstanding and defensiveness.

I think that is what KateSMN means when she says "fraught".

Piglet, Jewish people were also displaced when the state of Israel was created. They were expelled from all the surrounding Arab countries or they would be killed. There has definitely been ethnic cleansing of Jewish people from every middle eastern country except Israel. Somehow that fact has always been ignored by the media.

Dione, only two posts have been deleted on this thread.

Are the demonstrations against Israels attack on Gaza anti semitic?

I don't think so. And I hope that those who are concerned about anti semitism throughout Europe (per thread title) are not confusing - or as we like to say on Mumsnet - conflating the two.

You are right Minty.

I have been reading this thread from the start. I was aware that posts had been deleted, but had not checked the thread again to see how many.

my apologies to ketchup.

That post was intended to be addressed to a person who said

"It is hard to understand how Gaza is 'occupied' when the Israelis unilaterally its military and all Jewish settlers in 2005"

I am sorry that I somehow got confused.

op. yes, you are right to be concerned about the rise of anti semitism in Europe.
Most of the worlds ill are due to extremism

I am also very worried about the terrible racism and hatred that some Israelis and their supporters have towards Palestinians.

Sadly it is not just abusive language.

I'm worried about the hatred and contempt some Saudis appear to have towards the army of migrant workers who are effectively slaves there. i abhor the teeatment of women there and in other Islamic states. I would not think that this was a relevant concern on a thread about islamophobia in Europe. I wouldn't think it legitimate to argue that by making the pilgrimage to Mecca Muslims are supporting the Saudi government and so this explains why people hate Muslims. The uk supports the Saudi regime far more than it support Israel. It is interesting and worrying to see how hatred of a sovereign states actions and policies is being used to explain attacks on synagogues here and in the rest of Europe.

If you really think that is the reason people are attacking synagogues then don't you think we have a moral responsibility to point out the flawed logic here? A Jewish family in London is not responsible for the actions of the state of israel.

piglet I can't see the post you are referring to, but I don't think calling posters ignorant is very nice.

I presume that the poster in question was referring to the military withdrawal from Gaza and the dismantling to Jewish settlements that took place in 2005. That happened, so she is not ignorant. It wasn't perfect and a lot has happened since, but name calling on here is unnecessary.

The 1970's was much worse for anti-semitism, racism, homophobia etc, than it is now, as I remember, at least in the UK anyway. There were National Front marches, skin'eads, etc. Constant racism. On a much smaller scale, all the schools used to fight each other constantly. Wear the wrong blazer in the wrong place and you were in trouble.

So, I think we live in a much less 'tribal' society now and it's all the better for it. I was wondering why the 70s was like that and I wonder if some of the factors were that it was a time of recession, and poverty (comparative to preceding years) and also, (just throwing this out there), quite socialist governments which tends to emphasize the group - so sometimes people who aren't in the group are 'othered'.

I hope we don't go backwards.

Lemon

If you truly believe that Gaza is independent and not under the control of Israel, then you are mistaken. Feel free to browse the text in my post that you complain about.

I do realise that opinions differ, for example Israel claims that the Occupied Territories are not occupied, and the Illegal Settlements are not illegal, so perhaps you hold similar views.

I never said I believe anything of thr sort. Don't put words in my mouth. I said name calling on this thread is unnecessary. Feel free to browse my text.

And I hope that those who are concerned about anti semitism throughout Europe (per thread title) are not confusing - or as we like to say on Mumsnet - conflating the two.

Yes, those people who've been called a Jewish cunt, or who've been attacked or whose synagogues have been defaced must be careful not to confuse or 'conflate' anti-semitism with anti-zionism.

My reply was aimed at one of the new people who suddenly invaded mumsnet in the last day or so, and was either very ignorant, or possibly had been misled by Israeli propaganda.

I am sorry that you think I should not have mentioned that.

I have seen far worse things said on mumsnet, including the most vile lies by a few people.

It's great that you are trying to raise the tone of debate. Don't feel constrained to only criticise me though.

One of the 'new people'? Was that Timbucktoo? Are his/her posts still getting deleted quicker than he/she can write them?