AIBU, to be concerned about increasing anti-semitism throughout Europe

[DikTrom]

Yesterday's Sunday Times had a number of articles about increased anti-semitism in the UK. Same is happening in the Netherlands and even more so in France and Germany.

runes I think it is well established that Hamas has a policy of using human shields. But sorry, I'm getting sidetracked. It's up to you if you believe it or not and is really not the point of the thread.

My point was that on other threads nobody is allowed an opinion unless they condemn Israel. They may well feel sorry for the loss of life and that it is a terrible thing - I'm sure everybody does. But they may not wish to condemn and that is fine too - they are still allowed an opinion.

BarleyBub that is crap. I'm not in the least anti-Semitic and I would certainly describe myself as anti-Israel/anti-Zionist.
By that I don't mean I oppose right to exist - just to continue in their current incarnation. I believe that everyone in the area currently comprising Israel/West Bank/Gaza should have equal rights not based on ethic/religious background, and that Palestinians globally should have have a right to return.

barley See the Owen Jones link for the whataboutery. I think alot of people are a bit when they realise how Israel was formed, the Zionist terrorism which was used in the campaign and the displacement of large numbers of Palestinians. That doesn't mean they're anti semitic or unsympathetic to the idea of a Jewish Homeland. Just that maybe it wasn't gone about in the best way. I think a two state solution is probably the only workable way forward now. However it is ridiculous and dangerous to imply that Israel might as well continue with the land grabs as anyone who opposes them probably disagrees with their existence anyway

mac if crying at dead children makes me hysterical and angry then so be it

Can't be bothered to RTFT but to answer the OP: YANBU. Jewish people ANBU to be worried about increasing ill-feeling towards them and not just in Europe.

Like it or not, this has a lot to do with Israel's deplorable actions in full view and tacit approval of the world's major political powers.

It is very worrying.

Yes but runes you say the same thing over and over again. It's personally how you feel and not shared by some others. Why do you feel the need to have everyone 'condemn' and everyone sing from the same hymn sheet? It's not going up happen.

Clearly it's not shared by some others m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5630601

But this is a thread about anti semitism in Europe. You post reactionary peices of media and rhetoric for what ends?

In answer to the OP, YADNBU.

wannabe the issue of the appropriateness of the thread has already been addressed. My last posts have been in response to other posts, is that not allowed? And maybe I'm naive but I did expect that everyone on here would feel as strongly as I do about the innocent dead, but it appears not.

The thing is, you don't really know how strongly people feel - you know what points they choose to make as part of this discussion on this thread, which is not directly connected. As an aside, it would be pretty easy to find reports of people in Gaza celebrating the deaths of children, including 3 recently kidnapped teenagers, i don't think your link shows anything much.

You're behaving like a child Runes, posting links to clearly biased, one sided inflationary, press articles, as "proof" for what YOU think everyone should think and feel, and for good measure wailing about dead children as if that somehow makes your POV more valid.
I am purposefully not going to get into a political argument, not that you seem capable TBH, the links you are making are not good political discussion.
But if you like I can wail and beat my chest about close relatives (some children) of mine who were gassed to death in the Holocaust, in the hope that will make you believe and take me more seriously.
Its ridiculous and you are making a fool out of yourself, go and play elsewhere.

You are NBU OP, at all.

I wish we could have a thread about antisemitism/xenophobia/islamophobia without it turning into a discussion about Hamas.

When we as Muslims (rightly) protest that we cannot be held responsible for others seeking to speak and act in our names, such as ISIS or alQaeda, then we cannot single out Jewish individuals and call them to account for Israeli policies. I am disappointed by the lack of leadership shown by Islamic bodies in Europe on this and many other issues. Anger at the situation in Palestine is no excuse for anti semitic acts and we need to take control of this situation quickly. We also need to present a united front with other minority groups in the face of the increasingly xenophobic and hostile political discourse which is fuelling this.

Runes your comments are thinly disguised anti-semitism. Just because a Jewish person is Zionist does not make them a legitimate target for violence.

runes I feel very strongly about the bloodshed in gaza but I don't need to write about it on a thread discussing a separate issue. it is very disingeunous to accuse people who disagree with you about something else of not caring about innocent people being killed.

They are not facing increased anti semitism. We are all facing increased anti semitism. It is never ok to to victimize people because of their religion/ethnicity.

I feel very strongly about the innocent dead. I think for many countries, Israel is also convenient. The government are stupid and cruel but that is nothing to do with ordinary Jews. I don't know anyone who doesn't feel strongly about the innocent dead ffs but the innocent dead is NO WAY connected to Jews here, born and bred, who are being discriminated against because of their religion. If someone decided to discriminate against me for being raised Muslim, and excused it by saying 'Al Qaeda' or 'Saudi Arabia human right abuses' then I would be furious as I have nothing to do with them. And I have had comments. Most Muslims have, most Syrians who aren't Muslim have. European Jews have nothing to do with Israel/Gaza problems, they have most likely never killed someone and most likely would never want to. How can you justify them having shops burnt and innocent people attacked- one with axes, and some even killed, ffs- by saying 'well, a country they have nothing to do with did this to some other people'. Two wrongs doesn't make a right, but even if it did, you'd be targeting the wrong people.

excellent post vampire

This may be a bit off topic even for the already diverted thread, and possibly the wrong place to bring it up, but I've been reading all the Israel-Palestine threads over the last few days and I do think there's a danger of people on both 'sides' becoming so firmly entrenched in their own viewpoint that it gets in the way of the discussion, which would be a shame as much of it has been very informative and thought-provoking.

It IS (imo) a hugely complex issue that can't simply be reduced to 'evil Israelis murdering Palestinian children because they can' or 'evil Palestinians bringing this on themselves by being terrorists' - you have people on both sides who've lost loved ones to the conflict, who can't recover from that and see everyone on the other side as deserving of retribution, and others in the same position who have made extraordinary efforts to reach out to the 'enemy' and become activists for peace. You have two right-wing governments in whose political interests it is to provoke extreme nationalism and distort the facts, and from that citizens who've grown up with military indoctrination in schools or racist cartoons aimed at young children. You have normal, peaceful people who just want see the fighting stop being ignored by the Western media in favour of a more sensationalist story, and people on both sides doing deplorable things for no good reason other than that they are deplorable people. The circumstances aren't necessarily easy for us in the West (where I assume most of us are) to fully appreciate, and while there are aspects of the current situation that we can probably all agree are awful and unjustifiable, in terms of the conflict as a whole there are different stances people can take and from that point of view it makes sense to have a reasoned discussion.

Someone acknowledging that Hamas has also done wrong isn't saying they have no problem with the killing of innocent civilians, and someone saying they disagree with Israel's actions isn't automatically an anti-Semite who thinks rocket attacks on Israeli homes are fine and dandy, but I've seen accusations of both on various threads across the boards. Of course it's an emotive issue that people are going to have strong opinions on, but name-calling and getting angry with each other isn't going to solve anything or change anyone's minds. Maybe we all need to take a step back and try to hear others out (including me as I've also been finding it hard to separate my own views from my opinions of other people), acknowledge that we can concede certain points without 'losing' the argument etc etc. After all we are all presumably opposed to both anti-Semitism and the deaths of innocent civilians, so that's quite a lot of common ground already

Sorry, that came out waaaaaaaaay longer and more preachy than I intended I'll get down off my soapbox (and back on topic) now...

Surely we are all united in being deeply saddened by the innocent victims who have/ are dying in such awfully scary situations. However, the media does appear to be terribly one sides in its presentation of these victims being only those living in Gaza and not in Israel - where bombs are dropped throughout the day and night.
I think it's easy for people exposed to biased media reports to form opinions about Israel and to transfer there's feelings onto Jewish people. It's sad and it's wrong. It's also scarily reminiscent of the beginnings of the holocaust. Tesco are now banning some Israeli imports. It's horrible.

I do think some people are very concerned that the sort of rhetoric about Palestinians coming from right-wing rabbis like Kahane/Shas and those who support him/them are how all non-Jews are regarded including those in Western countries. Lots of people, not just Jews, lost everything and loved ones in WW2. 40 million Europeans died in that war. Those who survived and their impoverished descendants have also had seventy years to stew over it and research who did what. The problem is you get nutters like these in every religion who dehumanise others outside the religion - like the imam here in Australia who referred to non-Muslim girls who don't dress modestly as like pieces of meat to whom the flies are attracted.

sorry to quote Dr Seuss but I keep quoting him when thinking about this stuff ' a person's a person no matter how small'

I also think a ban/boycott on Israeli products is the equivalent of Kristallnacht.

I've seen loads of musings about the new Kristallnacht bandied about over the years. Banning Israeli products because you strongly disagree with their current policies is in no way the same IMO
Simply quietly refusing to have anything to do with Israeli produce is a quiet but effective stand point.

How things will go if this continues is anyone's guess though and arguably if the actions of Israel became conflated with the actions of 'Jews' it may end in comparatively similar destruction of property with hopefully vastly reduced violence and intimidation.

There are many more victims in Gaza than in Israel though, AnonyMust - there are over 1000 dead in Gaza and I think the figure for Israelis is still less than 100. Death is death and the casualties on the Israeli side are no less victims, but given the imbalance in numbers I think the difference in reporting is justified. I would normally agree that terrorist attacks in Israel seem to be far less widely reported than attacks on the Palestinian territories but in this case the coverage seems fair, as far as I can tell.

mimishimmi I completely agree with your first post, but how on earth can you say that boycotting Israeli products is the equivalent of Kristallnacht? Refusing to buy goods from a particular country because you disagree with its politics is a legitimate form of protest (whether or not you agree with the reasons behind it) - it's hardly comparable to smashing up shops owned by people of a particular religion and dragging tens of thousands of them off to concentration camps

Tbh, as far as Israel and Palestine go, I'm against both governments. Both of them don't seem to want peace. Israel is democratic and I suppose it is only the Israeli voters who can change their government much, but it's shit on both sides for ordinary people.

I would not describe the boycott as Kristallnacht, or even close. The use of violence, the symbolism in burning the synagogues, the terror....it would be very, very different to putting economic pressure, however severe, on a country, imo.