AIBU, to be concerned about increasing anti-semitism throughout Europe

[DikTrom]

Yesterday's Sunday Times had a number of articles about increased anti-semitism in the UK. Same is happening in the Netherlands and even more so in France and Germany.

alAsswad

'oh but Syria/ISIS/whoever are doing worse things'.
or
we should turn a blind eye to the situation in Gaza"
or
'but the people in Gaza are facing worse"
or
"dismissing the experiences of people on this thread"

What is it you are accusing me of saying? Luckily I have very few posts on this thread, so it won't take you long to answer.

Mintyy I do think they are facing increased anti-semitism. I walked past a swastika yesterday. And I know that isn't purely against Jews, of course, but most people using it will be using it against Jews. The shooting, clearly anti-Semitic, outside the Jewish museum in Brussels. The assaults on Jews in France (one of them involved an axe, I think?) and shops being burnt, synagogues being attacked. That didn't happen on the same scale a decade ago.

This thread seems to have gone onto Israel and Palestine.... I understand the increasing worry and disgust over Israel's actions but most people can separate that from anti semitism. It is very different to anti semitism. Anti Semites are maybe using Israel as a convenient excuse, but that is all.

guybrush that is anti semitism. Those terrible Jews, ruining it for everyone else...

I'm currently in Vienna. Each time I've visited Stephansplatz there have been demonstrations. The first time was very clearly pro-palestine/anti Israel, with banners in various languages, leaflets being given out, a stall i think and slogans shouted.

More recently, there was another type of demonstration which caught our attention, with a lot more people involved and a big crowd watching, so it was hard to see. A siren went off and most of the demonstrators dropped to the ground. There was a commentary in German which i couldn't follow and when i got closer, big banners with 'Hamas' written on them. At that, i just turned and sheparded the family away. (One of DH's (black) colleagues had been kettled in with a Nazi protest group turned bad a few weeks ago, I wasn't wanting to get mixed up in anything like that.)

Thanks to this thread, I've been looking at local news reports and discovered that it was a demonstration about the bombing BY three local Jewish groups and all the participants were Jewish, bringing to mind what it was like to be bombed constantly. I'm really glad to find this out, about Vienna of all places, and that the demonstration/flash mob went on peacefully and was well organised.

*anger
I guess my point is that yes, the line between anti-Semitism and anti-Israel is indeed wearing thin. But from the point of view of many, the line between being Jewish and being pro-Israel (and against the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state) can appear blurry too.
There is NO excuse for anti-Semitism. And there is NO excuse for justifying Israel's action's in the name of Judaism.

I expected to see mentions of Gaza just like I expect a lot of negative things. Just because I expected it doesn't mean I agree with it. Israel is NOTHING to do with anti- semitism. Being anti Israeli policies is nothing to do with anti semitism (although it is a bit blurred when it comes to specifically focussing on Israel, sometimes, I think). Israel is a convenient excuse to be anti-semitism, but that is the only reason it is relevant. Just like I would expect comments about terrorism on a thread about Islamophobia, but still wouldn't see it as relevant.

guybrush I think you are wrong, but this is not the place to discuss it.

runes why are you so insistent on condemnation? Have you condemned the rocket attacks on Israel and the use of human shields? Didn't think so. Insisting on condemnation of Israel before anyone is allowed to have an opinion on anything is ridiculous.

but catsrus this is what I said. Please read it again:

My comment was:

"It is very concerning" - that lays my cards on the table don't you think? I am extremely worried about increased anti-semitism in the UK and across Europe, and indeed the seemingly inexorable rise of far right feeling.

However, is it increasing in a bubble? Could it be that the thugs and bigots who love any excuse to demonise a section of the population are using the current Israeli activity in Gaza as a justification for their views?

But Mintyy that doesn't make sense. Was EDL acting with justification because of Muslim fanatics?

PigletJohn

"intelligent rational people are wondering whether they will have to abandon their homes, their careers, their friends and everything they have to escape with their own and their families lives.

That's terrible. It's like a return to 1948."

So the people experiencing anti-Semitism in Europe deserve this because some other (now mostly deceased) people who happened to be of the same religion did bad things in another country 66 years ago?

Sorry PigletJohn I should have made it clear what I was taking issue with - your response to Voodoo's comments about wondering whether she'll have to leave everything she has is to essentially say 'well so what, that's exactly what happened to the Palestinians', which is dismissive. (The latter part is also true, but that doesn't make it relevant to her situation or that of anyone else who's saying the same thing.) Unless I'm majorly misreading it, you seem to be implying that she and others shouldn't be complaining about their present situation because of the (historic) actions of Israel.

To answer the OP, I do think it is worrying that there is a rise in anti-Semitism in Europe. I think much of it is due to people who cannot separate the actions of the Israeli government with people who happen to be Jewish. For the record, I condemn all forms of racism.

Anyone who brings up Syrian atrocities against the Palestinians on a thread about Gaza is accused of "whataboutery" (fair enough if it's not a thread about Syria), but it appears anti-Semitism cannot be discussed without getting into a heated debate about Israel.

"Could it be that the thugs and bigots who love any excuse to demonise a section of the population are using the current Israeli activity in Gaza as a justification for their views?"

It's the word justification...

Bollocks, I can't post quickly enough today!

Apologies runes, I didn't mean to imply that you were being dismissive of anti-Semitism. I see how it came across as directed at you though especially as I cross-posted with your post re. Owen Jones. I think we're actually in agreement on several things, just (partially) disagreeing on what thread this conversation should be taking place on!

Guybrush, out of interest how do you know that the reason they're justifying Israel's actions is because they're Jewish? (Not having a go, I'm genuinely curious as it's not a viewpoint I've heard expressed by non-Israeli Jews.)

thunder Of course I condemn rocket attacks from Hamas. There is nothing more horrendous than the murder of innocent people, especially children . I am aware that there have been losses on both sides and every loss is terrible. However in the current conflict every time I read a report it is innocent people in Gaza who are dying in their hundreds. Bombed schools, playgrounds and hospitals. I have cried almost every day reading the reports from Gaza. I look at my own children and am appalled at the world we live in, that this could be happening and the rest of the world stands by and does nothing. thunder I want to shout from the rooftops about the terrible injustice and slaughter in Gaza. I'm amazed that others don't feel the same way.

Its the word justification what?

There's always been an undercurrent of anti-semitism in western society and the current conflict in Gaza is just giving people an excuse to vent their spleen with the excuse being that they are being "anti-Israel" rather than anti-Jew. You can't be opposed to the Jewish homeland without being anti-Jew, really. And it's amazing with all the conflict in the world, how much attention is being foisted on this one in particular.

Barley you can be opposed to the Israeli government without being 'anti-Jew', surely? Maybe not opposed to the existence of Israel, I don't know, but I don't think that's what people are saying...

I've seen plenty of people arguing that Israel should not exist. People arguing that Palestinians have the right to their land etc. How can you be opposed to Israel "land grabs" but not opposed to the state of Israel having the right to exist? Given that it didn't exist prior to 1946.

alAswad Glad we agree I really do wish all bad history could just be erased and everyone could just start again. Obviously with an even redistribution of wealth too but that's definitely for another thread.

thunder I don't buy the human shield myth, see number 5.

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5624401

Barley - Most of the opposition is to the occupied territories (post 1967 Six Day War), but there is still plenty of debate and discussion about the injustices that occurred when Israel came into existence in 1948 that underpin current events.

oh my god because of course that is completely objective.
Runes you sound completely hysterical.

Barley I meant they're not saying it on this thread, I'm sure there are people in general who are saying that I don't understand your point about the land grabs though - some people want Israel to go back to pre-'67 borders, some people want to see the dismantlement of the illegal settlements, that doesn't mean they don't think Israel should exist...