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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

to think this should have been murder? Warning: potential triggers. Distressing content. [title edited by MNHQ]

371 replies

wannaBe · 25/07/2014 16:57

\link{http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28483061\warning, distressing content}
So it's culpable homicide because she didn't mean to kill him? ok then. Hmm I hope there is a special place in hell for people like her.

OP posts:
HeySoulSister · 28/08/2014 23:47

In fact NO !! I don't want to know.... Hmm

IPityThePontipines · 29/08/2014 01:48

Molio - IIRC the amount the sentence is reduced by is discretionary. To take nearly a third off the sentence is excessive, particularly as the 11 years isn't a minimum tariff and she could be out much sooner.

Stratter - someone said on another thread that the children were all being looked after by a relative.

Wellknackerdmammy · 29/08/2014 02:26

I'm a bit lost. I'm guessing this is the wee boy in fife. And the papers said his mum was googling questions reminiscing of PND. Is that why mental health is being mentioned?

I have poor mental health recovering self harmer I have never been violent in my life. I would never harm my kids. I know I would never hurt my kids they are the only thing keeping me going.
But There is a really bad psychiatric condition that mums can get after having a child, worse than PND. I forget the name. i didnt have it, i didnt even have PND, but i know that without support, treatment or help it can fester into a lot worse. It seems that in this case, that cld be what has happened. It never excuses killing, or meditative actions after it. But maybe if this woman and that child had better support, there wouldn't have been a tragedy.
If it is the same case you are talking about, I read the woman had 5 kids. She didn't kill the other ones.
I'm lost wether to be sensitive to this or to condem.
But I certainly didn't sign up to mums net to find conversations about such delicate issues.

Mental Heath, maybe. exH, or DH's crazy mother in laws or grandparents, kids driving u u the wall cos they are smarter than we are, nosey neighbours or what washing powder works best. Potty training tips. Crying your eyes out cos your kids crying n you can't stop it and it hurts ya. First steps. What to do if another kid hits your kid.

Leave murder, manslaughter and crimes of tragedy to police, courts and judges.

It's horrible, it's comment-able, but i thought on here we are mothers not executioners.

HeySoulSister · 29/08/2014 06:33

No, we are people..... some of us may well be mothers..... But that doesn't define us!!! Mother or not, we can have opinions

And no, it's nothing to do with PND! That always gets trotted out

popette · 29/08/2014 08:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Molio · 29/08/2014 09:15

HeySoulSister you can have no idea at all what was going on in this woman's life or mind, so are quite unable to know that 'it's nothing to do with PND!'.

Wellknackerdmammy is quite right. The thread is a really unedifying spectacle, full of the capital punishment brigade and the sorts of people who in the old days would have made haste to watch public hangings. Righteous at the same time, weirdly.

The judge had access to the proper reports and given the awful nature of the case with its attendant publicity would have been even more careful than usual to assess the sentence properly.

Original poster
wannaBe · 29/08/2014 09:15

popette you've now had four of your posts deleted, the majority of deletions on this thread in fact are yours, and still you are clearly intent on derailing this thread.

Well congratulations. I've now reported to mn and asked them to remove it. Angry Angry Angry

OP posts:
Tinkerball · 29/08/2014 09:33

Molio, whilst we don't have access to the facts the judge had about the case the fact that she has been imprisoned rather than detained in a secure hospital - by that judge - suggests she wasn't mentally ill at the time of the crime.

Molio · 29/08/2014 09:38

No Tinkerball it means that she isn't sufficiently ill now to be detained in a psychiatric hospital. Those convicted don't go to a hospital because of how they were at the moment the crime was committed, they go or don't go according to their current mental state.

Absolutely no-one here knows the facts, including me, obviously.

fromparistoberlin73 · 29/08/2014 10:17

The thread is a really unedifying spectacle, full of the capital punishment brigade and the sorts of people who in the old days would have made haste to watch public hangings

I think people to some extent have used this thread to "vent" their anger, so things have been said. In truth- would I want to sit in a room and watch her have the shit beaten out of her? no, of course not. In fact after reading the sentancing report, I have calmed down.

However its a horrific crime, and I think people DO need to able to vent and shout in anger about this- as its very upsetting and frustrating.

I do not for one minute believe that anyone who has remonstrated would actually want to watch violence be perpetrated against her.

But do think when people vent their anger, they should be allowed to do so and some ofhwat we say needs to be taken with a pinch of salt

Tinkerball · 29/08/2014 10:56

Molio I understand about her mental state but if she had been severely Pnd at the time of the crime ( and I don't believe she was - ok we don't have all the facts - but we do have the facts about what she did after she killed him in attempt to cover her crime up and not be discovered - this does not suggest Pnd. I don't think it was mentioned at the sentencing ( although I could be wrong) so again I don't think this is a mitigating factor.

Original poster
wannaBe · 29/08/2014 11:53

if it had been a mitigating factor then surely there would have been an element of diminnished responsibility in there? which would have allowed for a much shorter sentence. Bear in mind she was still sentenced to eleven years which seems short in the face of the crime but is still a long time if served in full.

OP posts:
popette · 29/08/2014 11:57

wannabe, it's a shame your thread has gone down such an ugly road, but it's certainly not my fault!
I've asked for 3 or 4 posts to be deleted because they were unnecessarily offensive and had nothing to do with the subject in hand.
My subsequent posts were automatically removed because they contained the same content as those deleted. If you read the talk guidelines it says that.

It would be a shame if the entire thread was deleted because of egos. It contains some interesting thoughts.

Molio · 29/08/2014 12:26

I haven't read the defence case for mitigation. But even in the newspaper reports it was acknowledged that she was struggling to cope and that there were all sorts of issues. Plenty of things can constitute genuine mitigation (as opposed to excuse) short of a full scale mental health condition. The fact that other people suffer PND and/ or not bonded but never hurt their kids is an empty observation. It seems that this particular mother badly needed help from the outset - help not censure - and the fact that she looked online to see what she could find out about not loving a child suggests to me that it was answers and a solution she wanted. But who knows? It's just desperately sad, but I don't understand the need for strangers to 'vent anger' fromparistoberlin. Sadness for the little boy yes, but anger no, and 'rot in hell' comments absolutely never.

EarthWindFire · 29/08/2014 13:22

popette

You have accused poster as having 'low intelligence' and other such things. That is not ok either.

It is a shame that this thread has been derailed just because people can't have a discussion without throwing insults.

fromparistoberlin73 · 29/08/2014 13:22

maybe we are different then! I recall the tragic Daniel Pelka case

many people were so angry, upset and frustrated as it was SO damm avoidable. and now 2 sets of siblings (at least) will grow up with the horrific legacy hanging over them. Thast does make me angry, but more sad than angry.

Its quite natural to feel angry towards someone who hurts a child.

I think we just need to agree to disagee really Grin its an emotive topic

Tinkerball · 29/08/2014 14:01

Molio people want to cent anger because a child has died in horrific circumstances and feel that the charge should have been murder - that's it. Humans by their very nature are emotional beings and something like this was bound to stir up emotions. I know you say you understand why anyone would want to vent their anger, and I really not having a go at you hut just because something is outwith the understanding of our minds doesn't mean it's wrong. We just all think differently that's all.

IceBeing · 29/08/2014 14:08

There are so many things I don't understand here.

For one thing, I had cause to look up 'why don't I love my child' on the internet....is the act of someone who doesn't understand why they don't feel the way they think they should. I imagine it must be even more confusing when you love all your children except one.

How can anyone think that it is normal behaviour to hate one of your children and cut them out of photos?

Surely anybody can work out that not loving your child isn't something you choose but something that happens to you?

Or do people think I simply chose not to love my DD because I am evil?

There are so many terrible things that were done by this woman...but they all start from her experiencing a state of mind that almost noone on this thread has experienced. I don't think she chose that.

Tinkerball · 30/08/2014 01:37

Or do people think I simply chose not to love my DD because I am evil?

Of course not...unless you murdered her, hid her body and pretended she had been abducted. Thats evil.

CatWitch · 30/08/2014 04:02

I am coming to this late. Absolutely heartsick for that little lad. A tiny sick child without the ability to defend himself against a person trusted to love and care for him. As a society we must work together to prevent more needless deaths of such innocents.

ilovechristmas1 · 07/09/2014 15:06

it's saying in the mail that her children have visited her in jail

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