to think this should have been murder? Warning: potential triggers. Distressing content. [title edited by MNHQ]

[wannaBe]

\link{http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28483061\warning, distressing content}
So it's culpable homicide because she didn't mean to kill him? ok then. I hope there is a special place in hell for people like her.

There is IMO a difference between wanting someone to "wrot in hell" and wishing they get a kicking every day for the rest of their life. The first is based on the belief/hope (depending on your take) that this woman will one day be accountable for her actions on a higher level so not an immediate iyswim. It's an emotive reaction to a hideous event but one which calls for the higher power in which someone believes to make the final and correct judgement. The latter however is based more on need/belief in personal vengeance which is neither helpful nor constructive.

nobody can state that there is no such thing as evil. The most that can be said of any criminal is that such violent crimes are not the actions of a normal person. But not normal does not necessarily equal deserving of compassion.

How many people feel compassion towards myra Hindley? Fred and rose West? ian Huntley? Harold Shipman? All of whom committed horrific crimes, all of whom did not act within the realms of "normal", but all of whom knew exactly what they were doing and in some instances even gained enjoyment from what they were doing.

Just because this woman was the mother of the child she brutally tortured and murdered over three days does not mean she wasn't a monster - clearly she wasn't capable of compassion and felt nothing for the child while he died. Even if she didn't love him what kind of person could murder a child and conceal a body in that way? Not a nice person...

people seek compassion because they don't want to believe that some people are just evil. No maybe they weren't born that way but as adults we have choices - she chose to murder her child, now she should pay the price for having done so.

popette

i know it's not easy or pleasant being a minority view on MN, but you have NOT been bullied

to call people disagreeing with you on stupid AIBU thread "bullies" is offensive to the real and nasty bullying that goes on in the world IMO

Oh boo, you annoyed me; that's what happens when you're rude and snidey, you irritate people. But bullied, lol it's like MN bingo, you got back what you gave. If you're a counsellor, you should know the value of choosing your words with care; you can't preach and pi all over everyone, then get upset and call bully when you get shouted down.

Maybe think before you post, so you don't have to back peddle when you insult posters.

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Love, it's still bullying! And all relative! I've basically been told my opinions are not valid, I've been called twattish and that I had no place within the conversation. I'm not in the minority OFF mumsnet. Lot's of my friends share the same opinion as me.
It seems there is much mumsnet politics at work, lot's of seasoned posters and frankly lot's of unintelligent posts. Yes, really!

Stratter5, line ignored. Even counsellors on their days off get pissed off and speak their mind! I've been attacked for my opinion not my tone. So have Molio and Nickynacky. The three of us have deigned to offer an opinion that does not tally with everyone else's and paid the price it seems.
Bet I can guess the seasoned posters and I bet they'd be the ones making all the noise...

I've been called twattish, yes from me; after you posted that you were conversing with people of low intelligence, what did you expect, nodding admiration and applause?

Stop the 'poor me' tone to your posts, insinuating that you have no place in the conversation is nonsense but I can choose to strongly disagree if I wish ,as can others.

Thanks for adding that sandiego. No poor me here. Feeling good thanks... Also forgot I was called a 'silly old mare' for saying that parenthood was hard, and reported that person. Not quite on the same level as saying, truthfully, that there were people with very low intelligence.

This isn't about you popette, I have responded to posts where 'compassion' for this woman should be considered, I'm paraphrasing there btw.

I don't feel compassion towards her,, I see her as a woman who killed a child [forget that he was her own child] in a brutal, cold manner and I think she should have faced a murder charge as in the OP.

Popette unpublished are doing yourself no favours with what you are saying about other posters and coming across (to me) as a bit "superior". You cannot claim for example you are not in the minority off MN for example just because YOUR friends think the same as you. You are not in the minority in your friends that's all. Regarding peoples motivations, there aren't always reasons for bad behaviour apart from the fact the person is just that - bad. Whether they were born that or is it the old nature versus nurture argument ....well who knows, although there is some interesting research that suggests that the signs of psychopathic personality disorder can be spotted in children as young as 2.... Who knows where the research will go here. Some people do things because inherently they are so self centred that they really don't care about others and will do anything to ensure they get what they want...to protect themselves.

Unpublished? I have no idea where that came from!

Popette you seem really fixated with trying to 'understand' this woman - you barely mention her child and any reference to the facts about how he died are met with charges that people are being sensationalist and hysterical.
I am of the mindset that most people are basically decent and tend to try to look for the best in people but life has taught me that some people are, for whatever reason, simply bad.
If you are a kind caring person who thinks about others and is capable of empathy and compassion (like the vast majority of people), it's difficult to accept that some people simply don't have the capacity to feel empathy or remorse but, unfortunately, these people exist.
A psychologist colleague of mine spent some time working with prisoners with personality disorders when she was young and idealistic and believed that nobody was simply 'bad'. She changed her mind pretty quickly and, to this day, is still affected by one man she worked with who had been convicted of raping a 13 month old boy who subsequently needed 4 operations to repair the damage to his anus and rectum.
He never showed any remorse for what he did and insisted that the boy enjoyed it.
Lord Laming spoke about some of the social workers involves with baby P being 'dangerously naive' in their continuing to try to look at the parent's strengths and ignore their obvious failings. That's how you're coming across.

Andywarholsorange, thanks for your response. It's good to read something different. I feel as though I've been so busy defending my opinion and batting off name-calling that, yes it does appear that I've not considered the little boy. I hope it would be obvious, as a mother myself that this is not true. I have three year old so these things always tap a nerve in me. In fact the reason I stumbled across this thread in the first place.
The story you just told me was incredibly distressing to read. But as I've said before I know delusional mental illness and it can make people do insane appalling things. I'm not saying that evil does not exist in people. I keep reiterating that.
Maybe I am being naive in thinking that she was driven by circumstance and complex mental makeup but I still don't think people are born evil. In the case of baby P the social workers just absolutely didn't do their jobs properly, nevermind naivity. They failed to report things that were glaringly obvious.

Tinkerball, I still think it's nurture not nature

That's fair enough Popette, I think in all likelihood it's a mixture of both. And can I also reiterate that what I do believe that people can just be evil or bad I do not believe anyone with a psychotic mental illness is evil because of their illness, how can they be when the very nature of psychosis means they are detached from reality.....no-one is evil because they are schizophrenic for example but you can be "bad " and have a mental illness to.

Those quotes are yours, yes you had forgotten the child .

It's easy to quote from previous posts, one just reads back and pastes if it's relevant to the thread., I did include the dots that infer it was part of a longer sentence...........

can we not all draw a line under this,best to agree to disagree it's going round in circles

ive been out all day and thought it had all been put to bed

For someone who professes to be a counsellor you react very easily to negative feedback, wouldn't you agree?

Yes ilove you're right.

Clearly a very sad story, and emotions justifiably running high. But just wanted to remind everyone of the Talk_Guidelines and ask nicely for a bit of

Thank you Ellen.

I have tried my best to be kind, thoughtful and tolerant but I do take real offence at posters misusing my quotes for their personal ego inflation. Sandiego, you're still doing it! Negative feedback is part of life and very useful. Bitchiness is not.

thank you Ellen

Can people take their personal issues with one another off board?

You're still excusing a person who attacked a child and ignored his injuries.,( he might have survived with intervention) . She ignored him.