to think this should have been murder? Warning: potential triggers. Distressing content. [title edited by MNHQ]

[wannaBe]

\link{http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28483061\warning, distressing content}
So it's culpable homicide because she didn't mean to kill him? ok then. I hope there is a special place in hell for people like her.

I'd much rather get back to discussing the thread seriously, however comments such as support workers being 'lowly', and snipes about 'low intelligence' shouldn't be allowed to slide.

Posters are allowed differing opinions, we can all learn from each other, but ramming your opinions down other peoples' throats, insulting them, and belittling them is neither constructive, nor conducive to discussion.

Nicknacky look at what popette had written, you can't write you believe you are conversing with people of a lower intelligence and not expect a response! I have not bickered, just stated my opinion (I have also made no comments about Rosdeep rotting in hell or equivalent) and stated I believe Popette is very naive not to accept that some crimes are just committed because there are bad people in the world, sometimes that's the only explanation needed. I am certainly not looking to take umbrage with her/him but their posts come across as rather sneery and "I'm right, you're wrong...have some compassion".

I have read what she has written. And I still think the bickering is unneccessary of a thread about a 3 year olds life.

Why crimes are committed is a complex issue and her opinions are just that. Hers. And are perfectly valid.

Any comments like "rot in hell" I also pay no attention to during a discussion as there is no thought behind it, no reasoned discussion as to why that is their opinion but just sheer reactive emotion.

So an opinion that people that disagree with her are of lower intelligence may well be her right to express but doesn't exactly show someone who states that in a very good light I think, and is open to response by others on the thread, the so-called lower intelligence people!

And yes I do think the charge should have been murder but it wasn't. Our justice system isn't perfect and can be flawed but it is how it is. Doesn't mean it was the right decision however.

From HMA v Adakoya

You thought he was disobeying you and had eaten too much. He was sick when getting ready for bed, and you lost your temper with him. You smacked him and you struck him on the body with your clenched fist. He was sick again and you struck him again, on the head and body with both an open hand and a clenched fist. He was sick for a third time later that night, and again you lost your temper, dragging him to the bathroom and beating him on his back with hand and fist while he was draped over the edge of the bath.

The next morning he was sick again when about to leave for school, and you struck him on the back with your hand. He was listless for the next two days or so, but you did not take him to the doctor when you knew you should have done because you were frightened that Mikaeel’s bruises would be noticed

Compassion for that?,

I just cannot accept popettes's insistence that this woman deserves sympathy, especially her 'I feel for her' comment.

Err, Nicknacky the bickering ones are you and poppette. With the exception of you directly targeting me, and poppette's insistence that she's a) not a 'lowly support worker', and b) is having to converse with those if low intelligence, nobody else is actually having a pop, or carrying on an argument. Poppette's shot herself in the foot with her remarks, as far as I'm concerned; I don't listen to people who make remarks like that.

Eh how am I bickering? And how did I "directly target" you?

I think I responded to a post of yours (amongst others) but certainly didn't target anyone.

I'm the only person you've specifically called out. You seem to forget that we are ALL entitled to out opinions, are perfectly capable of deciding what is and isn't media exaggeration, and have been incredibly patronising. You probably don't think so, and I'm unlikely to change your opinion, but that is how you come across to me.

It is probably best we simply post round each other, as I cannot see why you are making such an issue of this, and I'd rather not argue.

I directly named other posters in reply to their posts, I think you are being a bit paranoid.

I don't particularly give a shit if you find me patronising. I think I will live with it. And not wanting to argue......oh the irony!!

There are people who don't deserve compassion. She is one of them.

If she had confessed to not loving the child and given him up there might have been some judgement but she would still have been deserving of compassion. But she lost that right the day she systematically beat her child to death over the course of three days and then hid his body in a suitcase while calmly taking his twin to nursery and then disposing of his body and then reporting him missing resulting in hundreds of people searching for him.

Every step of that process was calculated. She beat the child but didn't take him for medical help because of the bruises. So she knew what she'd done was wrong. She could have turned back then but she didn't. then he died. She could have confessed then but she didn't. She concealed his body. She could have confessed on the phone to the police to report him missing but she didn't. She had ample opportunities to do the right thing but she didn't.

The only people deserving of compassion in this situation are her children. She lost that right she murdered one of them. The charge might not have been murder but that doesn't mean she isn't a mmurderer.

I've since glossed over the majority of your posts, I'm not concerned about what you think of me, or others; but thanks for telling me I'm paranoid, I'll add it to the low intelligence, needs patronising, etc list.

You've detailed this thread quite nicely, you've been rude, patronising, and deliberately obtuse. God knows what your problem is, but bulldozing others isn't the way to get your point heard. And like you, I don't give a shiny shit what you think. The fact is that you're simply a very vocal minority, so I'll go back to ignoring. Which is a shame, because I thought you were another, much loved, poster initially, and we were simply in disagreement; but I've never seen them talk down to other posters the way you do.

I feel very sorry for the officers who will be guarding her. If she ever is out on the wings she will be a target.

Rude, patronising and obtuse? Forget my previous comments about not bickering. Would you care to show me where on this thread I have been all of those things. And also the comments about low intelligence?

I'm not a much loved poster, I don't post much.

lets hope she has the living shit kicked out of her in prison. every day, for years and years. and she most likely will.

fucking scumbag

meloria, i am a fairly tolerant person but I dont agree with what you say, she hated him and its known she preferred her other kids to him.

awful

Any comments like "rot in hell" I also pay no attention to during a discussion as there is no thought behind it, no reasoned discussion as to why that is their opinion but just sheer reactive emotion.

can you kindly allow people to vent their anger? Her crime was vile and I think people should be allowed to express their disgust for her.

she repeatedly beat her child, did not seek medical attention, and then beat him again when he was ill, then left him to fucking rot in a suitcase

on what fucking planet are people not allowed to be "reactive" about that??

Does it make you better to swear and wish someone gets a kicking? Does it change anything? No it doesn't.

If that is the opinion you have then that's cool. But it's not language I use on a public forum.

Although to be fair, I don't normally react like that unless it's in response to something that personally affects me.

i apologise for swearing then.

but please, allow people to express their justifiable anger

I know that awful things happen, there were 2 mothers in London that killed their children. Felicia Boots and Tania Clarence. For both these women I felt a degree of compassion and forgiveness- and the outcome was the same- death

but for this person, none. She has crossed the line, and people are allowed to be very very angry about what she did

it does not make us "Daily Mail readers", it does not mean we are the MN equiavalant of people who attend public beheadings!

and in all honesty, no I dont want her to be beaten for every day for the rest of her live. But I dont think her sentance was sufficient

I have to say it again?... The people I've referred to as having low intelligence for making statements such as 'rot in hell' etc AND, yes stillclassysandiego whoever made the comment that you've so kindly copy and pasted the reply about my comments being 'offensive to the millions who battle mental illness'. WTF?

I said 'lowly support worker' in response to the peculiar denigration of my supposed job position from GP. It's certainly not my view of support workers! Yet again my words taken and twisted. I was being sarcastic but I can see taking it out of context made me look even more dreadful. You must have been delighted Tinkerball.

To posters mentioning 'hell', I hate to break it to you all but it doesn't actually exist. A little like 'evil'. These are not facts, they are notions. I am dealing with facts.
Nice that wannabe has something to add, she being the creator of the thread. What do you make of the posts that followed your initial one?

It's such a shame several posters, myself included have been bullied for our views. Mumsnet is a great forum for expressing views and bullying on this level is bizarre. I'm clearly not the only one who feels bullied either.

My concerns on bonding issues are very important to me, and I'm happy to admit on a personal level as well as a professional one. I would not be surprised that many many women struggle with negative feelings towards their children and never admit it, never find help, feeling ever more desperate, driven to drastic action. For some it is impossibly hard adjusting to life as a mother. It's difficult for many mothers to understand that because it come so naturally. It's innate. But not for everyone. It's a struggle from day one for some, and there seems no way out.

I work as a counsellor which is why I'm more struck by the emotional side. I'm also happy to share that I have very close experience of the notion of 'evil' as I have cared for someone I love very much who suffers from psychotic paranoid schizophrenic episodes. She has often 'appeared' horrfically evil, talking of devils and hell and torture, but I know she's not. She's a sweet girl who is afflicted with a terrible illness. Think how many different mental illnesses there are and the way they present themselves. They are not set in stone, or even evident on first glance. The person I look after had been ill since her teens but we didn't really know for sure until she was in her 30's.
I absolutely do not believe this woman, however appalling her crime, was born 'evil'. It's fairly obvious she has mental problems and that was a contributing factor. Time will tell on the subject of what her mental state really is. She'll receive loads of counselling and won't be incarcerated in a bare room, I know that much.
I still don't know why I've been responded to so negatively. All the papers state she had bonding issues with her son, and struggled with the adjustment of having children.

I really won't be goaded into responding to any more attacks from here on. I know I'm not alone in my opinions. Sorry if I have come across and arrogant at times, but perhaps it's because I felt attacked. It's not pleasant.

And apologies for the long post but I have some time to myself today and I wanted to clear a few things up.

You haven't been bullied, the responses from other posters to your statements have been proportionate imo..

Her bonding difficulties with her son don't excuse the terrible attack that caused his death or the way she reacted when it must have been apparent he was in need of immediate medical attention.

I'm not excusing the killing, and never have, I'm pointing out that it was a contributing factor and that she is not a monster. Nor, in my opinion guilty of premeditated murder as was the original topic on discussion.

Err, hello! I've only just noticed this one Statter5,

'Err, Nicknacky the bickering ones are you and poppette. With the exception of you directly targeting me, and poppette's insistence that she's a) not a 'lowly support worker', and b) is having to converse with those if low intelligence, nobody else is actually having a pop, or carrying on an argument. Poppette's shot herself in the foot with her remarks, as far as I'm concerned; I don't listen to people who make remarks like that.'

What complete tripe. Strangely enough I zoned out and over all your posts, which is why I missed this one, probably because they were so devoid of fact and littered with insinuations and written with so much personal venom. Yuk!

she is not a monster?, not a monster but capable of beating her child to his death, ignoring his obvious suffering then burying his body within a suitcase and trying to save her own skin?

Keep being her apologist by all means.

You are using sensational unpleasant language. I think it's called atrocity porn. You don't have to go on about it. We know what she did.
There is more to it than simply declaring her a monster. I'm more interested in why she did it, what her motivations were... Everyone has a motivation. They don't just 'do' things, bad or good.

You are using sensational unpleasant language

I'm writing the method and means of how he died, not sensational but unpleasant for sure.

You don't have to go on about it

Why not, those are the facts.