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to think this should have been murder? Warning: potential triggers. Distressing content. [title edited by MNHQ]

371 replies

wannaBe · 25/07/2014 16:57

\link{http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28483061\warning, distressing content}
So it's culpable homicide because she didn't mean to kill him? ok then. Hmm I hope there is a special place in hell for people like her.

OP posts:
popette · 28/08/2014 08:30

Lol. Sandiego, you're like one of those wind up toys that keeps going again just when you think it's stopped!

fromparistoberlin73 · 28/08/2014 08:43

I think the ongoing spat is becoming distateful and is very disrespectful to a child that died

I have said my piece, and have even apologies for an earlier rant

but now I am really upset that a thread about the tragic death of a child has turned into a spat

lets stop it, please? our opinions are really not that important

AndyWarholsOrange · 28/08/2014 09:22

paris you're right and I'm going to bow out now. Popette the last thing I'm going to say : This has obviously touched a raw nerve for you. MN is not known for a DM witch hunt mentality - quite the opposite, it's usually accused of being full of bleeding heart liberals too ready to make excuses for people. IME MN is very sympathetic towards mental health problems. I would imagine that any woman who had done something terrible while severely depressed or psychotic would be treated with compassion. Many people , including me,have said why we find it difficult to feel compassion in this case.
Having a minority view doesn't automatically mean that you're wrong. However, if I expressed an opinion and nearly everyone disagreed with me, I'd like to think that I could register that and think that, just maybe, those 95% of people might have a point.
As a counsellor, you're obviously aware of concepts like projection and transference. I just think you should reflect on why you feel so strongly about this.

popette · 28/08/2014 13:42

Please don't patronise me. I was quite literally attacked for my stance, along with two others, Molio and Nickynac. That is why I so passionately argued my case. Or, in fact simply stood up for myself.
I made a complaint to mumsnet and they have intervened and deleted posts in the thread that were offensive and contravened mumsnet talk-guidelines. None of those were mine.
I havn't for once said that anyone else's views were wrong. If I have, please show me. We've all had 'a point'. I felt the method of delivery was questionable. I've been respectful of others views and asked simply that others were respectful of mine. I have thought about the thread and reread it over the last few days and it's left me only with a very unpleasant taste in my mouth. My reactions under the circumstances were reasonable.
Certain people targeted me in a most unfair way, using small parts from larger quotes to show me in bad light and that is totally unacceptable. I might ask you to reflect on how you might feel if that had happened to you.

I've even apologised for coming across badly, as it was certainly not my intention to upset anyone. I've not had an apology from anyone, not even for the childish name calling which certainly deserves an apology! My opinions don't deserve to be called twattish and I don't really think calling people 'silly old mare' is acceptable. Clearly mumsnet doesn't either as it's been deleted.

I asked some friends what their experience of posting on mumsnet was like. One said 'never again!' and another said ' Oh god, they are the domain of the most ill informed but opinionated people who don't believe in live and let live. Best avoided!'

Peace and Love

Molio · 28/08/2014 14:47

popette I stopped reading when I last posted - too many 'rot in hell' comments. The thread became truly disgusting.

Andy that last post is spectacularly patronising, popette is right. The fact that there are '95%' bayers for blood and a comparatively small number of posters able and willing to extend some degree of sympathy for the situation this mother found herself in, may mean no more than this type of thread most likely attracts a certain kind of person. It doesn't in any way mean that the majority holds a more valid point. Any more than extending sympathy to the mother dilutes sympathy for the child - any implication that it does is utterly facile.

Stratter5 · 28/08/2014 15:05

I asked some friends what their experience of posting on mumsnet was like. One said 'never again!' and another said ' Oh god, they are the domain of the most ill informed but opinionated people who don't believe in live and let live. Best avoided!'

Off you pop then.

I have tried my best to be kind, thoughtful and tolerant

Must have spectacularly missed that bit whilst I was busy being annoy at being called 'low intelligence'.

I sincerely hope you don't speak to your clients the way you do on here.

Stratter5 · 28/08/2014 15:19

I made a complaint to mumsnet and they have intervened and deleted posts in the thread that were offensive and contravened mumsnet talk-guidelines. None of those were mine.

Not mine.

Can't see any deleted posts, unless MNHQ remove the whole thing now. Stop making this all about you; others are allowed opinions, they are also allowed to express them without being patronised or told they're thick for not agreeing with you.

This thread is about the horrific killing of a three year old defenceless child, who was murdered by the one person he should have been able to turn to for love, safety, and help. Instead she neglected him his entire life, and killed him slowly and painfully over three hideous days, when she could have gone for help at any time. That is why feelings are running high, it's just about the most abhorrent thing a woman could do to her child. Those of you making excuses for her, what would you be saying if it were his father/grandparent/anyone else who killed him? What has been your stance on past threads about abuse and violence? Because I, for one, have absolutely no capacity for sympathy for what she has done, and I say that as a mother who has experienced bad enough PND to be hospitalised for months after a genuine suicide attempt, a mother who had absolutely no idea how to care for a child, had no outside help until my beloved XMIL intervened, and didn't bond with her PFB until she was 5-6 years old.

But I went through the motions. My God I went through the motions. I pretended every damn day that she was the most important thing in the world to me, until she became that. To this day, she has no idea. And I didn't go out partying either.

EarthWindFire · 28/08/2014 15:27

I made a complaint to mumsnet and they have intervened and deleted posts in the thread that were offensive and contravened mumsnet talk-guidelines. None of those were mine.

You may have made a complaint, but NO posts have been deleted.

Beeyump · 28/08/2014 15:46

If your opinions are twattish, they will be called twattish, surely.

fromparistoberlin73 · 28/08/2014 16:01

exactly stratter

Its not about you popette, really

I find it really upsetting that all you seem to fucking care about is the fact that you had a very minor spat with a few posters- its NOT THAT BIG A DEAL- really

what IS a big deal is what happended to Mikaeel

people are just genuinely upset about what happended to Mikaeel

so to be honest I find your 4 paragraph post going on about how fucking hard done by you are on here really really shocking

Beeyump · 28/08/2014 16:04

'Certain people targeted me in a most unfair way, using small parts from larger quotes to show me in bad light and that is totally unacceptable.'

A little boy suffered and died at the hands of his mum. I find that a little bit more fucking unfair, don't you?

wannaBe · 28/08/2014 16:12

No posts on this thread have been deleted. Apart from one, and I have no idea what that was about.

I started this thread because I was horrified that a woman could brutally and systematically murder (yes, murder) her child over the course of three days and it not be classed as murder because she was prepared to plead guilty to a lesser charge.

But it seems that some posters here have seen the need to make it all about them. And it really isn't.

Popette you are not a victim here. You've made your points, people have disagreed with them as is their right. But every time things calm down you seem to need to come back and shout "but what about meeeeeeee."

People will disagree on threads - that's life. But when the thread turns into someone's own quest for victim status it's time to step back from the computer and re-assess your over involvement.

If you don't want to keep arguing with people then the hide button is your friend. Nobody is going to continue to discuss you if you're not here - strangely enough the thread wasn't started to discuss you - it was started to discuss the brutal murder of an innocent three year old. Or have you forgotten that.

Now please stop.

OP posts:
AndyWarholsOrange · 28/08/2014 16:33

Quite wanna. We all need to remember who the real victim is here.

MrsStatham · 28/08/2014 16:38

Well said WannaBe

Thebodyloveschocolateandwine · 28/08/2014 16:41

Wanna just read the first and last page and totally and utterly agree with your posts.

My sympathy is invariably with the poor victim In most cases and it's always totally with abused/murdered children.

Poor baby.

IPityThePontipines · 28/08/2014 17:23

The more I think about this case, the more shocked I am that it isn't murder. I think it sends a terrible message about the values of children's lives.

I have looked through the Judge's ruling again, this part troubles me very much:

"Had it not been for your early plea of guilty to the reduced charge, and the indication at an even earlier stage that such a plea would be forthcoming, I would have sentenced you to 13 years imprisonment for the culpable homicide and a further two years for the attempt to defeat the ends of justice. That would have been 15 years in all.

But you are entitled to a substantial discount to reflect the saving in time and expense of a trial and, perhaps more relevant here, to reflect the fact that witnesses have not had to come to court to give evidence of a horrific and harrowing nature.

In the circumstances, the sentence of the court is one of imprisonment for 11 years. That will be backdated to 20 January 2014 since which date you have been in custody."

As she pleaded guilty, thus "saving in time and expense of a trial" she has had four years taken off her prison sentence.

I am well aware that remorse is considered as a mitigating factor, but to take nearly a third off someone's prison sentence when you have committed a crime like this, which can never be remedied, is appalling.

The judge mentions that a trial would be extremely distressing for witnesses, that's because it was a horrific crime, so why on earth reduce her sentence for that?

Can you imagine if that was your loved one? "Yes, what the defendant did was so horrendous, that because they've spared us having to hear all about it, we're going to let them out of prison sooner".

Thebodyloveschocolateandwine · 28/08/2014 17:40

Yes agree and taken with the despicably ignoring of child gang rape and abuse recently it really does feel that we are, as a society, treating children's lives cheaply.

wannaBe · 28/08/2014 18:09

I imagine that the witnesses would have been some of her other children. so perhaps the mitigating factor could be that it's perceived that she spared her other children further trauma iyswim.

I don't agree she should have been given a reduced sentence for that fwiw, but I can sort of logically see why she might have been.

OP posts:
Stratter5 · 28/08/2014 19:27

Does anyone know what will/has happened to her other children? Will they stay within the family, or will they now go into the care system? They too have been through so much, and must have witnessed and gone through things no child should ever have to :(

Molio · 28/08/2014 19:48

It's part of sentencing policy to reduce for a guilty plea. It isn't discretionary.

StillStayingClassySanDiego · 28/08/2014 20:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Nicknacky · 28/08/2014 20:53

still that's an appalling thing to say!

Tinkerball · 28/08/2014 21:23

I'm still actively looking for all the supposedly deleted posts....Popette I think you are talking about another thread!

YetAnotherHelenMumsnet · 28/08/2014 21:40

As EllenMumsnet said earlier, we do understand that this is an issue that will cause tremendous upset, however, we would very much ask you to stick to the Talk Guidelines.

HeySoulSister · 28/08/2014 23:46

Gosh, so many deletions! popette you've been deleted. What on earth did you say!!

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