to think children shouldn't choose if they have contact with NRP if no welfare concerns?

[HopeYoureHappy]

DP has a contact order regarding his 7 and 9 year old children. Their mum has constantly breached it and uses the reason that it's the childrens choice - for example - DS doesn't want phone contact, he's busy on the iPad, DD has decided she'd rather go to her friends party and she wants me to take her, DS doesn't want to come because you don't have a paddling pool and he thinks he'll get too hot

Sometimes it's both DC that don't come, sometimes just one. Last time DD 'didn't feel likeit' and when DS ddiscussed a planned and paid for day out next week, he asked if DD was coming and DP replied 'no idea, she'll be the one missing out if she chooses not to.' AIBU to think that this is the wrong attitude and that the DC shouldn't be able to choose whether they come for contact any more than they can choose whether or not to go to school? They are always happy here and there's no welfare concerns but they are very much manipulated by their mum who bribes them to stay ('we could've gone to Thorpe park, but you're going to your dad's...) and tells them she'll ne lonely without them.

DP seems resigned to this messing around but they are back in court for review next month and I think he should ask the judge to ensure that DSC mum must adhere to the order and not put the DC in the middle. What do you think?

But I do take your point Aero I just think AIBU is the worst possible place for a whinge about EXWs

Good grief, this is a parallel universe thread! On the legal, relationships and single parents boards you can find any number of threads where courts have insisted children up to their mid teens have to go to contact, willing or not, even if there is reasonable evidence of the NRP carrying out low level abuse, and informed voices explaining in detail why. The advice here seems to be it's entirely up to the children and the NRP should just give up!

I don't agree that many of the children being forced to go to traumatic, distressing or risky contacts are going to thank the adults involved when they're grown up, and I don't agree at all with NRP relationships must be preserved at any cost to the child and the RP - but the reasoning is there to prevent one adult removing a perfectly safe, ex partner and good parent from their children's lives for no good reason other than their personal preference.

OP if you'd posted that you were pregnant and planning to cut the baby's father out of the child's life you'd be handling howls of outrage at daring to suggest a father is unimportant to the child. YANBU. Try moving this to another board.

"So a relationship with their father is inessential for you then, hooby is it ? Nice"

In essence, no. That's why loads of widows and widowers manage to raise children despite the absence of a father/child relationship. That, however, wasn't the original point I was making. What I was doing was indicating that speaking to the father every time he called, seeing him every contact opportunity is inessential to the formation of a strong relationship with him.

This is a crap comparison, I know, but I wonder of the forces wives, how many of their kids have other plans when dad comes home, how many are engrossed in an Xbox game or not in the mood for talking but still have a firm child/father bond.

I still say that forcing the children will cause argument, discord and resentment. Especially resentment.

I still think that this isn't the business of the OP, particularly not the little digs about how the mother parents during her weekends (mother daring to consider playing out or kids going to GPs normal, for example).

I still think that the DC will pick up on the adult disagreement, not to mention the OP's obvious dislike of their mother and that alone will make them not want to visit their father.

I'm not totally convinced by the assertion that 'offer of trip to theme with mum park trumps bike ride with dad'. Kids will do the oddest, dullest things with people they actually want to spend time with. Maybe their reluctance has nothing to do with their mother. Maybe it has nothing to do with their father. Maybe there are other areas of the father/child and mother/child relationship which the OP considers "certainly is my business" and maybe it's that which the children are happy to avoid. A pp has a good point about kids wanting to please everyone, so maybe, "Actually, dad's girlfriend we don't like you getting involved/playing mum/your attitude to mum" isn't something they'd be likely to say to her or their father.

I'm just musing, sorry, long post!

I am the lone parent of a DD, now 18. I split from her father when she was just under 2 - he had an affair and has since married the OW. They have 3 DCs together. I have also moved a considerable distance from him (when DD was 5) for good reasons in no way related to DDs father. I do see her relationship with him and with her sisters as essential, unlike some posters here .
There have been times when she didn't fancy a 4 hour drive twice in the weekend (she went about every 3 weeks or so) but I have always just presented it as fact, not something we could choose to not do. She has always enjoyed visits in the end (I speak to her when she is there and we have a close relationship). It is entirely wrong for a RP to suggest visits are in any way optional. We have always worked together to try to ensure she could do everything she wanted to do (some events here, some at his) but she has, inevitable, missed some parties etc. One of those things - she would, I'm sure, have missed some even if we had stayed together due to family commitments.

OP - your DP and his ex need to sort this out and she needs to see that she is, in the end, harming her own DCs if she dissuades them from visiting their father or tries to limit their contact with him.
As an aside, I'm not a big fan of the term half-sibling - DDs sisters are just that, her sisters. She loves them (although she also loves that they aren't around all the time, I think!) and they have spent time with just her and me.

Ds has no contact with his siblings, cardibach. His father didn't even tell him when his third child was born, nor that his current wife was even expecting again. He's been sent no pictures of them, and on the rare occasion when his father did decide to see ds, ds would never meet his sister as her mum had taken her shopping with her. I couldn't support a relationship which was non existent in the first place. You sound like a very fair mum

Thanks LadySybil - it wasn't without effort in the early stages :)
Sad for your DS. DDs relationship with her siblings is lovely. I know so many teenagers who have nobody to talk to (teacher) that I am happy she has a relationship with her dad, siblings and, yes, even her step-mum. Some parents need to remember who are the adults...

It's great, it was clearly worth the effort.

I'm sad about it to be honest, they have done a grand job at excluding ds. His grandfather had a stroke 9 years ago and ds hasn't been allowed to see him since. He's in a care home but they won't tell us where. I'd have loved for him to have had a relationship with them but they have made it impossible (all my fault, of course )

That sucks. It makes me so cross when children are made to suffer in splits - and it only takes one parent to do that. Pity your ex is one of the shitty ones.

Yes, Cardibach agreed - I took the same approach with my child and their father. He too had affairs (plural) but the last thing I wanted was my child to end up feeling crap about themselves .... had I made it clear to my child that I thought their dad was a waste of space I ran the risk of child pondering whether they too were somehow flawed. As it happened, affairs aside, in all fairness ex did step up to the mark re: parenting after we split so I have no complaints there. I am so so thankful we managed, between us, never to use our child as a weapon or to score points. I also agree visits to someone important shouldn't be presented as optional - if child wanted to do something on "dad's time" it was understood this would be discussed and wasn't necessarily guaranteed ... e.g. if dad had already made plans, such as a weekend away, which couldn't be easily undone. As you say, there were times as well when I'd have to say no to child because I had something planned myself such as an obligation to visit great grandma or whatever. I daresay child wasn't overly enthralled at that idea and might well have chosen to remain at home if they'd been offered that option - but you know, part of bringing up a well rounded kid is, IMO, also about teaching them that sometimes you do have to think about others and do stuff which isn't your first choice.

The mum is emotionally abusing her children. No good parent should stop their children from seeing their father in fact they should encourage it. So many times I see mums stopping contact or telling dc they miss them, it's appaling

I dont think children should be forced to go anywhere. My 2 eldest children are not my dh's children and we have an agreement that they go to their dad's alternate Fridays and Saturdays every week. Ds goes every week without fail, his dad adores him,they have a good relationship. Dd, however, very rarely goes

Oops,Pressed enter too soon.

Anyway dd very rarely goes to her dad's - I can't actually remember the last time she did go. She has never had a good relationship with her dad even when she went every week when she was younger. All his effort and time goes to ds, he isn't interested in dd, never has been and has always said he never wanted a girl (nice guy eh?). She doesn't feel welcome there, gets ignored and doesn't enjoy her time there. Why on earth would I force a 10 year old girl into that environment every week when she can stay at home with me, her 2 sisters and her stepdad who loves her to pieces and treats her as a dad should. I know which house I'd choose if I was her and would feel very resentful of the person who forced me to go to a house I wasn't welcome or comfortable being in.

YANBU OP. As you say, it sounds like your DH needs to go back to the court, and ask that his ex is made to keep to the order. It seems very unfair on the DC's to be put in the middle like that.

I know Fide mabey stepparent board is better

Whether or not it is right or wrong to permit young children to choose whether to spend time with their NRP is the subject of endless debate, research and argument.

What should not be in question is the damage that the ping-pong approach described does to any resident children in the Non-resident household.

The OP says that her DD is close to her stepsiblings; yet they are being permitted, by their parents, to flit in and out of her life as if she is of no importance. The OP is pregnant - how long will it take for those babies to become familiar with their half siblings if their presence in the family is sporadic and infrequent?

The welfare of the non-resident DCs does not outweigh the welfare of the resident DCs.

Sadly, in these situations, the NR child soon becomes sidelined through necessity, in order to protect the resident children.
The resident-DCs are not told about contact plans in advance, in case the NR children decide not to come at the last minute. Family holidays are planned in a way that excludes the NR child to avoid last minute cancellations. Birthday and family celebrations are held with no expectation that the ping-pong child will be there. And of course, that leads to the NR child feeling left out and more likely to opt out of contact.

It's not hard to see how situations develop where children haven't had contact with their NR parent and family for years.

Ah, good point, Wakey. It must be a vicious cycle. From ds's perspective, he's not allowed to have a relationship with his siblings or his grandfather, and he feels unwanted and in the way (it's his father who's done this, it's not because ds has been brainwashed into not seeing them).

What should not be in question is the damage that the ping-pong approach described does to any resident children in the Non-resident household.

Too right! That does get over-looked. My DSC are 12-15 years older than DD...she adores them and they her...but if they were able to decide not to come here, or to 'ping-pong', DH and I would have to protect her as best I could, and I am afraid that would mean limiting her relationship with them, and limiting her expectations of them. Which would add to the whole problem...and carry the problems on into their adulthood.

In essence, no. That's why loads of widows and widowers manage to raise children despite the absence of a father/child relationship
The comparison to children who have no father isn't really appropriate. Those children who have lost a dad (or never had one to begin with) are potentially (at the very least) damaged/hurt by the lack of an on-going father/child relationship. But it is a different thing from an estrangement from a living father. The fact that widows or single mums are able to raise happy and healthy children doesn't reflect the fact that a relationship with a living, available father is "inessential".

Do you know what? I would HATE to become a step mum, it's such a bloody mine field! Bitch if you do, bitch if you don't.

Op I can understand your frustration, how do you know the exw tells the children she will be lonely etc? Have they told you this?

I think the only thing you can do is go back to court, but like you say it's a vicious circle.

Eventually, hopefully, there will come a time when the kids aren't fooled by her anymore.

Widows lose partners through death, it's not anyone's fault or a choice, and children recognise this. An absent parent who doesn't contact a child, or an inconsistent absent parent who picks up and puts down a child like a toy causes so many problems for that child, who believes they are unwanted or they did something so bad it drove them away. I see my child's self esteem issues caused by feeling unwanted, in the way and a burden, every day. I tell him that he's very loved and wanted, and I do my best to make a secure environment where he feels safe, but at the end of the day and no matter what I do, it will never go away.

Gosh there is a nasty bunch here today.
picture this. Say op was a mother and nrp how many of you would be saying 'ah well if your daughter doesn't want to visit you shouldn't force her' if the father was conveniently arranging treats on the mothers weekends for which there is a CONTACT order in place. Not bloody many I'll bet. You would all be outraged.
Bloody double standards

As a step child who went to visit her father every week come rain or shine irrespective of what 'cool' things I might have been able to do instead I agree with catsmother.

She sounds very manipulative - my Mum never did anything like this - not going wasn't an option. And today even 20 years after my father died, I am grateful to her.

Picture this Frog;

The boyfriend of said mother wandering into AIBU to post bitchily about the father and make catty remarks about how his version of 'family life' is inferior to the one the (completely unrelated to child) OP provides

OP I hope my son gets a stepmother like you.

There are some people on any step parent thread who have a visceral negative reaction to anything proposed by the step mum. They can't win. No contact, that is her fault; encourage contact, she should wind her neck in. Geez.

That's right. Only care about problems that affect you.

This thread is a special sort of stupid.

Contact is there for a reason and 7 years old is too young to decide that they don't want to see the other parent (unless there's abuse in involved). The mom is only going to set herself up for resentment later to put the kids in the middle like that. Kids can tell when they're in being yanked around, and they won't be too young to verbalize why this upsets them for much longer.