To not want to see SIL ever again!!!

[han3459]

My SIL and I have always differed completely on how we raise our DDs. Both of our eldest girls are 12 and it's become a constant issue between us.

Whilst SIL is a controlling psycho stricter parent (in my opinion), I am much more relaxed with my DD. For example, I let my DD wear some make up, paint her nails, has two ear piercings and occasionally will go on trips to town with her friends. I try to let my DD have some independence by letting her make decisions such as what to wear (within reason), choosing the activities she wants to participate in, and how to spend her pocket money.

SIL totally disagrees with most of these and has made this known on many occasions. She refuses to let DD go anywhere without adult supervision, won't let her wear anything she doesn't like and is totally anti any kind of make up/hair straightening etc. I do feel sorry for my DN as she is constantly not allowed to do things my DD can do, which must be hard for her.

I totally understand people have different ways of raising their children and DD is respectful of different rules in other people's houses. However, my SIL is constantly criticizing me and my DD in front of us about parenting which drives me insane.

Lately things have got much worse. A few weeks ago, SIL and BIL took DN and DD out for the day. When they stopped at a restaurant, SIL repeatedly told off DD for eating with her cutlery the wrong way round and forced her to use them the other way. I could not care less which way she uses them as long as she doesn't use her fingers and was furious as DD said she struggled to eat her meal. When I rang SIL about this, she said it was my fault for not teaching her proper social etiquette.

The last straw was a few days ago. SIL and DN came over as we were planning a family trip out. My DD was wearing a knee length dress with some mid calf length boots. It was a very cute little outfit in my opinion. However, SIL instantly made her opinion that it was inappropriate and asked my DD to change because she didn't want her daughter to thing it was an acceptable way to dress.

This led to an absolutely huge row, with SIL storming out after I refused to tell DD to change. I am so sick of having to put up with the constant judgement from her and don't think it's fair on my DD to be criticized all the time. I do feel for my DN but AIBU to stop seeing SIL so often??? All it causes is stress

Fortunately,i work in a field were knowledge of cutlery isn't a prerequisite for getting on

DH and I have been to more Silver Service dinners than I care to think about and no-one has ever has commented on his 'opposite' cutlery holding.

OPs DD does NOT have 'bad manners' she simply holds her cutlery in the opposite hands to us 'normals' . My DD has lovely table manners and does the same.

As for premature sexualisation. Words fail me. The dress was knee length FFS, not arse skimming.

I think Scottishmummy has it right.

You shouldn't see your SIL so often because you annoy each other. Neither of you is right or wrong about the parenting style.

If the cousins are friends, lets hope they can find a way to spend time together without the mums having to be involved.

I am right handed but hold my fork in my right hand (this is I think because my mother, father and both of my sisters are left handed).

I also had my ears pierced aged 4, wore make up to school from when I was 11 (green eyeshadow and purple eyeliner with Heather Shimmer lipstick) and at about the same age liked to wear a very madonnaesque black leather mini skirt with shocking pink lace fingerless gloves and bright pink fishnet tights.

The world did not come to an end because of all this. I have attended hundreds of formal dinners and balls. I have two degrees, hold a senior role in the legal profession and earn a six figure salary.

That wasn't meant to sound wanky , just to illustrate a point.

Bung us a fiver, Atticusclaw?

I can't keep up with this thread, so have only read 3/4 of it but I haven't seen anyone mention the background to the reasons behind the American practice of using cutlery the opposite way that Brits conventionally do.

(BTW, I'm left handed but follow British convention as I was brought up in a household of righties.)

It goes back to Boston Tea Party days. Using your knife and fork the "wrong way around" showed other supporters of American independence that you were a supporter too.

As much as I have been amused by Giles Coren at times, the gluttony angle is bollocks.

And to the OP, your DD sounds delightful and your SiL bonkers!!! Avoid avoid avoid.

I kept imagining this when table manners were mentioned

If this is how your DD eats, your sil may have a point.

SiL behaviour not pleasant.
However her style of parenting ie no piercings, teaching child correct table manners etc is more my style
YABU.

DP holds knife and fork in the opposite hands. It looks awkward, especially when cutting food. It makes me cringe..
But not as much as my DB holding cutlery like pencils. That makes me seethe loudly.

Well, there is another thread running where the OP's friend has an amazing CV, keeps getting interviews for her dream job, yet doesn't get an job offers. the OP thought it might have something to do with her friend's piercings and unusual hairstyle - the job she wanted wasn't public or client facing, her apperance doesn't really matter, yet most people on the thread agreed it might be what was putting interviewers off, when competiting against equally qualified and equally gifted and equally experienced people, it does come down to who is more likely to 'fit in' - or at least, fit in the judgement of the person interviewing, with their own prejudices and personal issues.

If you have several degrees and are far better qualified/experienced/talented than the competition, you can probably burp and fart at the table and it would make no difference. If you are up for promotion against people pretty much the same as you, details matter. (and some careers you are more likely to be frequently having lunch with a client/colleague than others.)

But we are not talking about radical hairdos, farting and burping at the table!

Simply holding your knife and fork in different hands.

Unless they ask that at interview, or give you a test lunch I don't see how it matters.

My husband once cut a bread roll. CUT it. I nearly LTB but after counselling he will never do that again. Boils my piss, it does.

Wow is that common?

That's a new one for my list is that.

Bread rolls should be torn.

Boots too long? God forbid a kid wear wellies! We are hardly talking thigh boots here are we?

Torn?! How the chuff are you suppose to butter a raggedy bap?

Harold - or have a graduate recruitment day with lunch provided and then have to decide between equally qualifed graduates which to give the job to. Or give you a job, have formal work functions regularly and decide who among a similar intake to promote.

In many jobs, it wouldn't matter. Some it would.

Rather than thinking it's rude or not, there are people who do think it matters and people who don't think manners matter.

If you hold your knife and fork in the wrong hands, or like a pen etc, then people who don't care, won't care even if you get it 'right'. People who do care, will care if you don't get it right. You won't know before being in that situation which type of person you are with - get it right and it won't matter either way.

As I said, I grew up with parents who didn't think manners mattered, though that table manners were for Tory voting Daily Mail readers, and not for terribly liberal people like them - as an adult, I had to learn.

Thankfully, I noticed other people behaved differently - better really - and bothered to do a little reading and realised I was being rude - my list included, I didn't realise not to cut bread, I didn't realise i shouldn't put elbows on the table, I didn't realise I shouldn't sit down at a formal meal until everyone had arrived at the table, I shouldn't start to eat until everyone at the table had been served. Really, it seems basic stuff now, but if you've never been told or seen it, you wouldn't know. Other people sometimes assume you do know the basic rules, but are chosing not to follow them.

You won't know before being in that situation which type of person you are with - get it right and it won't matter either way.

Absolutely spot on, beautifully put.

I also agree with Vintagejazz. The cutlery thing sound weird if it was just left/right reversal, but if she was doing that weird looping hands around to cut and bending arms around to get food in mouth (rather than angling the fork differently in her hand, elbows tucked in), then she has a point. That way of eating looks as slovenly to me as using fingers (although, in some cases I am not anti-finger anyway.... that sounds well dodgy).

I kind of think that you can describe all you like, but on this one it might be a case of 'a picture tells a thousand words', and that it's hard for anyone to judge without seeing what your SIL is seeing.

But on the whole AIBU... a bit of both. Your SIL should not be so judgemental but if your DD is in her care, I think what she says should go, to an extent.

IMO your SIL was trying to help in showing your DD the correct use of cutlery. It is a basic skill that every child should be taught (whether or not they choose to put it into practice in later life). I don't think its rude to correct a child's table manners when you are looking after the child.

As an example: at an important client dinner, a junior lawyer at my firm turned to the side plate to her right and started tucking in to the bread roll. It belonged to a very senior and humourless client who wasn't impressed. He glared at her for a moment and then asked (in a loud and icy tone) if it was tasty. She had no idea what was wrong. Her boss then made it worse by apologising and passing the client her plate and roll.

The client was a tw*t. But judging by the expression on the junior lawyer's face, she would have given quite a lot to know in advance which was the correct side plate to use.

I think YABU to object to this.

Over the dress issue, YANBU IMO.

Millie - which side plate is mine is still something I struggle with! (I forgot that off my 'table manners I was never told' list) I often wait until other people have started on bread rolls and just eat the one that's free...

I'd love to hear the SIL's point of view on this one. There seems to be a lot of backstory!

Big LOLs at "buttering a raggedy bap"! Hah! I think you're meant to tear little bits of your roll off and then butter each tiny morsel before popping it in your mouth. Not 100% sure though, I don't butter my roll, just bite chunks off. gasp I also hold my knife and fork the "wrong" way. And had earrings, makeup and hair dye by the age of 12.

Mary, let us agree to disagree, because I just can't see it.

Apart from if they ate like a slobbering hound.

At raggedly bap. Funny the stupid pointless things that people see as common isn't it, pulling a roll apart in your hands or cutting it with a knife.

New one on me that.