to think faith schools should be banned?

[fluffymouse]

Not just because they aren't inclusive or diverse, but also because of the local impact.

My nearest school is a faith school. Every day when I drive to work, I see dozens of cars parked along the street of the school with parents dropping off children. They park everywhere on a very narrow street including double yellow lines and the zig zag lines outside the school. It seems like nobody walks to this school, as it quite simply does not serve the local community.

Local people have no chance of sending their children to this school unless they are off the faith, and they have very strict criteria for this. Meanwhile locals also have a lot of congestion to put up with. There is obviously also a big environmental impact.

Aibu to think that state schools should be inclusive, and not exclusive based on faith grounds, as all tax payers are contributing towards their running costs?

Not at all. However, the state should not be paying for it.

1. The parents of children who go to faith schools pay tax, same as the parents of children who go to non-faith schools.

1. Every child in a faith school would otherwise be educated in a non-faith school. It's not like they would just disappear if faith schools disappeared.

1. I can't speak for the UK, but in Australia, the govt gives LESS money per child to faith schools than to non-faith schools. So people who educate their children in faith schools are actually saving the taxpayer money.

The parents of children who go to faith schools pay tax, same as the parents of children who go to non-faith schools.

This again? Yes, and they have a wider choice of school simply because they go to church. Someone who pays the same tax does not have the same choice.

Every child in a faith school would otherwise be educated in a non-faith school. It's not like they would just disappear if faith schools disappeared.

And? The point is that it would be fairer not that children would disappear.

I can't speak for the UK, but in Australia, the govt gives LESS money per child to faith schools than to non-faith schools. So people who educate their children in faith schools are actually saving the taxpayer money.

This is irrelevant in an argument about UK state schools as it is not true here.

Koala, you don't seem to understand your own argument. If hospitals were faith hospitals then people not of that faith would be taken down lists when people of that faith came onto them. That would be totally unfair (as it is unfair for secular children in faith schools)

You have said these things and then when someone points them out as being unfair you say 'what are you talking about?' the real question is, Koala, what are YOU talking about. If you think faith hospitals will work please, tell us how the admissions for surgeries would go, how would it work if atheist Joe Bloggs needed knee surgery and had been waiting 3 months for it but then Mary Cooper Catholic needed it too? You are saying that Joe Bloggs would be bumped down the list because Mary Cooper is a Catholic.

Which is unfair.

Have looked up about funding and realise that funding is complicated! In voluntary aided schools the capital costs are partially born by the church, not so in voluntary controlled schools. But VC schools tend towards having open admission whereas VA tend to have religion as an entry priority.

I described a waiting list where you would be bumped down in favour of patients of a certain faith. You said that you would be bumped in favour of a "high risk pregnancy" and so it was done all the time. To me, this says you think they are the same.

Okay, that's because, as I said from the beginning, the analogy makes no sense.

I think that being bumped off the waiting list of a maternity hospital because someone pregnant needs the services of the hospital, is analogous to being bumped off the waiting list of a faith school because someone of that faith needs the services of the school.

YANBU

I hate it when people deny it is a problem elsewhere because this isn't what happens in their village.

My local CofE school says in its admissions criteria 'We welcome children of all faiths or none, however in the event of oversubscription...' well doesn't that sould just lovely and all inclusive. Funnily enough it is completely oversubscribed. Someone who lives in timbuktu but goes to church can get in ahead of us who live almost next door.

The thing that gets me is we have zero choice. Closest school 1 minute walk away is CofE. No chance. Next closest school 10 mins walk away is catholic. No chance. But hey ho the DC can get into our catchment school a 20 min walk away, it's not in special measures any more.

If my children were baptised catholic we would be in the top admissions category of all 3.

and yes it annoys the hell out of me that I can't get out of my road in the morning because of all the parents who drive to the church schools from the other side of town, but that is a symptom not the root cause of my frustration.

Not London by the way, just a normal town.

And don't kid me that these families at the church schools all have a deep-held faith, a large number of them do not, they have done what they needed to do to get themselves that choice of schools, creating further divide between the populations of the church schools and the state school (I could share the FSM statistics of the respective schools as an example).

Owlcapone "This is irrelevant in an argument about UK state schools as it is not true here."

Yes it is for Vol Aided schools

ICanHearYou, I assure you that I do understand my own argument. It's you who is misunderstanding.

Nowhere have I said that there should be faith hospitals! Hakyult introduced that analogy, saying that faith hospitals wouldn't work, and I've said it was a shite comparison (schools v hospitals) from the beginning!

You have said these things and then when someone points them out as being unfair you say 'what are you talking about?' the real question is, Koala, what are YOU talking about.

FFS. I have not said those things at all. Go back and re-read.

I have read the thread, you had a debate with someone about what would happen when a hospital is full, you insisted that if its 'full its full'

when this was questioned, you began saying 'what are you talking about' rather than answering the question put to you.

"But VC schools tend towards having open admission"

VC schools all use LEA criteria. it's not just "tend" is it ordinary criteria for all.

"VA tend to have religion as an entry priority."

Yes, and the number of faith/community places varies school by school. In CofE schools it is unusual for all places to be faith ones. Though it tends to be the case for RC ones.

Anyone know about Jewish, Hindu and Moslem schools?

To replace each voluntary aided secondary school would cost between £15 million and £35 million just to build the school. Or you would have to force the churches to sell their land.

Thank you for tightening up my words auntiestella :)

OwlCapone and others: I do not understand why you think it is 'fairer' for your child to have equal opportunity to get into any school of your choosing, if that school is set up by a religious group to cater to children of that particular religion that your child does not belong to.

I could understand if the British Govt was setting up and wholly funding schools that then discriminated on the basis of religion, but they're not.

YANBU.

It is ridiculous that any school can discrminate on religion - and also by gender. How is it legal? Imagine if I owned a company and advertised for only Catholic staff - that would rightly be slated. So how can a publicly funded facility get awy with it?

What are religious people so scared of - do they think their children will stop believing in "God" if they're not constantly surrounded by references?

If churches and people want children to be educated in a certain way then bully for them, but they should pay for it. And yes, it has been said many times on this thread "religious people pay taxes too" well that's all good and well but public funds should not be used to facilitate exclusions to sections of society on the grounds of religion/gender which is what those schools with faith as part of the selection process do.

And this isn't just a London issue - it is an issue in many other urban areas.

Taking Catholic schools as an example: the Catholic church set up its own education system because it believes Catholicism should be an integral part of a child's schooling. Why on earth would they not then give preference to children from Catholic families?

They should be able to, but not while they are funded by the state. An RC school may own the building and the land but the upkeep and teacher's wages are paid by all of us.

I don't have children, I don't mind my taxes being used to pay for education for other people's children, in the long run I will benefit because some of those children will go in to professions/jobs/services I use, whether that is pizza delivery or brain surgery.

I do object to tax money being paid to discriminate against children because of their parents' beliefs or lack of and teachers' being discriminated against again because of their belief not because of how good/bad they are at their job.

My understanding is that the upkeep in va schools is at least partly, if not wholly paid by the church.

So, it is OK to discriminate provided those representing the favoured group are paying something? Imagine applying that reasoning to any other form of discrimination.

Anyway, this discussion will just go round and round and round. No one will change their mind.

I do wonder whether there are any non religious parents who are in favour of faith based discrimination in schools. Properly in favour rather than simply not caring because they got into their local faith school anyway.

I'm talking about practicalities here. Ok ban faith schools. What happens then? The churches own the land, help with the up keep. Can you force them to sell their land? Run schools but have absolutely no say in them? Or will entirely new schools have to be built elsewhere at huge cost.

But koala, church schools weren't set up to cater for that religion, they were set up to educate all children in the parish. It's only this generation where school places haven't kept up with the birth rate that faith schools apply admission rules where children can be excluded. When this is the only school within 5 miles surely this isn't a good example of a caring 'Christian' ethos or 'Christian' values that that peppers so many prospectuses.

Regarding church land, compulsory purchase orders would sort that or a peppercorn rent. If only we had a government with balls.

Round where I live my two closest schools are faith schools. No child gets in either school without a letter from the religious leader confirming the parents attend the place of worship (deliberately vague) regularly.

A neighbour of mine is not of those faiths so her child obviously didn't get into either of those schools. But her child also didn't get into her third nearest school - a community one. This is because of the distorting affect of the faith schools mean that there are more local non faith children trying to go this community school.

So yes she does have to drive her children to a non faith school - but only because it is so far away.

I appreciate there are religious schools that do end up taking non observant children but that is only in areas where schools are undersubscribed or if that particular school has chosen not to implement restrictive policies.

If a school is happy to take tax payer's money it should be open to all children regardless of faith. Just providing the building and a small percentage of the costs is not enough. In practice this would still mean that most religious parents got a place at the school as many parents like me would choose to send their kids to a community school if any were available. If a school wishes to prioritise children of the faith it should become an independent school and raise money from that community to operate.

YANBU

It's not just the discrimination against children of other faiths/no faith, it's also the ability to discriminate against teachers of other faiths/no faith when recruiting.

I don't believe the state should fund faith schools at all. If people want a religious education for their children they or their church/mosque/synagogue should pay for it (eg. Sunday school, after school madrassas etc).

Unless the links between church and state is severed, something I as a non-Christian would welcome (I'm a humanist) then faith schools of all faiths will continue.

This from the Fair Admissions campaign shows that faith schools are likely to take fewer kids who are eligible for free school meals than the local average. One extreme example: The Blue Coat CofE School in Oldham, takes 6.8% of pupils requiring free school meals compared to 47.4% locally.