to think faith schools should be banned?

[fluffymouse]

Not just because they aren't inclusive or diverse, but also because of the local impact.

My nearest school is a faith school. Every day when I drive to work, I see dozens of cars parked along the street of the school with parents dropping off children. They park everywhere on a very narrow street including double yellow lines and the zig zag lines outside the school. It seems like nobody walks to this school, as it quite simply does not serve the local community.

Local people have no chance of sending their children to this school unless they are off the faith, and they have very strict criteria for this. Meanwhile locals also have a lot of congestion to put up with. There is obviously also a big environmental impact.

Aibu to think that state schools should be inclusive, and not exclusive based on faith grounds, as all tax payers are contributing towards their running costs?

[Lillipuff]

My children's school does just that. It is very much a secular school and they talk about different aspects that require responsibility for the relationships we have and the environment we live in and positive qualities. They teach about religions but they don't teach/promote any religion.

I believe whole heartedly that the only way forward for a harmonious secular society is for a secular education for ALL children. Promotion of any one religion in a school is promotion of prejudice. There is afterall bias against non-religious people applying to faith schools.

I certainly don't think that the state ie: taxpayers, should be funding any religion in anyway shape or form. This is a secular society and if we want it to stay that way and we enjoy and value the freedoms we have with a secular society which include freedom of choice, free speech, freedom to worship any religion to the degree we choose then we have to protect that secular society through a secular education for all.

With all the many religions we have in our incredibly tolerant society it seems wrong to limit a child's view of that society by giving them a biased education.

Whilst I acknowledge the many positives of various religions, ultimately religion, like any kind of sectarianism is potentially very divisive and our varied, mixed society cannot afford this.

Anyone who wants their child to have a particular religious education should pursue it out of school time and at their own expense.

[WelshBlackbird]

I do wonder why this seems to be so difficult for people to see. If any places in a school are reserved for followers of a particular faith, then those places are by definition not available to people who may live close to the school but who do not follow that faith. And when those places are tax payer funded that is fundamentally unjust.

My DD will be attending a Catholic school next term. The school is part funded by the Church. My DD is not Catholic. Lots of her friends attend Welsh School. We do not speak Welsh. Should we campaign for all Welsh schools to be eradicated because an education through the medium of Welsh is not available to my DD?

[SuburbanRhonda]

I think you're being disingenuous, welsh.

An education in the Welsh language is available to your DD. Presumably you've simply chosen not to avail yourself of it because you don't want your daughter being educated in Welsh. It is not the school that is not allowing your DD to attend.

My nieces and nephews didn't speak Welsh until they started at Welsh school and now they are all fluent.

[WelshBlackbird]

Welsh school is not an option for my DD. We lived in England until she was 9. No Welsh school is going to take a 9 year old who does not speak Welsh. It would not be fair to the child. That doesn't mean I should want to ban Welsh schools for everyone else.

In our catchment area we have a Welsh school, a Catholic school and 3 comprehensive schools (One is a grammar school). A little way out we have a private school, a C Of E school and a further 2 comprehensive schools available to us. So plenty of choice.

I can't see the problem with parents choosing whichever school is best for their own child's needs. Sometimes we can't have everything we want but that's life. I really can't see why someone wants to ban a school for everyone just because it is not available to them.

Why would someone even consider taking away peoples right to choose? Some people want their children to be educated according to faith, some according to language, some according to the ethos of the school and others think one school fits all......

[SuburbanRhonda]

Oh, I see. You didn't mention that you were looking for a school for a 9-year-old.

I think people should be able to choose. If I remember the beginning of this thread back in June, I think most people didn't object to the schools as such, but did object to their being funded by taxpayers (the faith state schools, that is).

We have a excellent secondary school a mile away but my DCs could never get in because it is a Catholic school and there are 17 criteria on their admissions policy, number 17 of which is "any other children". The other 16 criteria are for children whose parents are religious.

I support it with my taxes, though, and that's what grates with most people.

[hackmum]

"In our catchment area we have a Welsh school, a Catholic school and 3 comprehensive schools (One is a grammar school)."

So which is it - a comprehensive school or a grammar school? It can't be both.

Anyway, newsflash: not everyone lives in the same place as you. Not everyone has a range of choices. Just to make it really simple to understand, suppose it was decided that from now on, we would have taxpayer funded schools aligned to particular political parties. After all, it might be very important for a parent that your child was brought up with a particular set of political values - the right ethos, you might say. So from now on, 20% of taxpayer-funded schools would only be open to children whose parents were Labour voters. Their parents would have to show how serious they were by attending party meetings for a few years beforehand. Maybe another 10% would be open to children whose parents voted Conservative.

But the Liberal Democrats, UKIP etc wouldn't have any schools at all- after all, the whole point of this new system is to make this unrepresentative of the general population. However, those of us lucky enough to send our kids to the Labour or Conservative-voting schools could point out to the rest of parents that they could send their children to the general, non-political schools that anyone could get into. After all, as you point out: "Sometimes we can't have everything we want but that's life."

So yes, let's deliberately build in unfairness and inequality into our education system to make sure that people don't get what they want.

[BookABooSue]

Education provision isn't the same for everyone. In a nearby catchment there is a single sex high school for girls. Should it be closed because boy can't go there and there isn't an equivalent single sex high school for boys?

In Scotland, the criteria for attending a faith school is faith and proximity so in theory the OP wouldn't be bothered with the parking/driving issue (except even local parents sometimes drive to school because they're going on to their workplace etc but maybe that's another problem only experienced by faith-school parents Definitely our local school has more local DCs from other faiths than it has DCs from out of catchment.

As for the complaint about paying taxes, is it a general distaste for paying taxes for services that you don't access or just a distate based on your personal anti-faith school perspective? My taxes fund art and dance schools that I'm not going to attend and that most DCs won't be able to attend either, should we shut them down too? Or is this thread really just about the OP's problem with 'religion' and nothing to do with unequal access to education services?

In Scotland, the RC schools were established by the Church, it was the state that intervened and made them state schools. In effect it means the state wanted to/ asked to pay for RC schools, it wasn't the case that RC schools asked the state to intervene.

[SuburbanRhonda]

I think you're missing the point about paying taxes to support religious schools, book.

Using your example, my DCs would presumably have a chance of getting into a dance school or an art college based on their ability, if they so desired. Their eligibility would have nothing to do with mine and their dad's spiritual beliefs. I am quite happy for my taxes to support schools where children with certain skills or talents could be educated.

What I am not happy about paying taxes to support a school like any other, except that admission is based on whether your parents are religious.

I'm sure you can see the difference.

And it is impossible to separate the issue of religion from unfair access to education. Blame the churches for that, not those who object to the situation.

[PhaedraIsMyName]

YANBU. I Suppose if the school is wholly fee-paying there could be an exception but the state should not be supporting faith schools.

[PhaedraIsMyName]

My taxes fund art and dance schools that I'm not going to attend and that most DCs won't be able to attend either, should we shut them down too?

What a ridiculous comment. Your children can't attend these because they don't have the necessary talent.

[PhaedraIsMyName]

Oh and yes of course the justification in Scotland is the Councils acquired a?l the RC school buildings free so therefore for evermore non RC children should be excluded. Completely ignoring the fact this was many many decades ago and the local authority of course has been maintaining the buildings ever since.

[BookABooSue]

I was being facetious. However I was also making a valid point that it is not only faith that impacts on the schools that DCs can attend or the education that we can choose for them. My DS can't access a single sex education within the state system but a DD can. Statistically pupils at single sex schools perform better academically. I'm a bit disappointed that a DS doesn't have an option that a DD does but that doesn't mean I think the all-girls school should be closed. Likewise, there is a Gaelic school nearby. We don't speak Gaelic so DS can't access that education either.

I don't resent paying my taxes to give DCs opportunities that my DC can't access.

That's why I think this thread isn't actually about parking or about equal access to education. It's about being anti-faith schools.

For what it's worth, I'm in Scotland and actually our faith schools have a mix of DCs of all faiths. We don't have the catchment issues that England seems to have and, from this distance (both geographically and emotionally) it seems to be a shortage of places that causes the problems rather than the existence of faith schools.

[SuburbanRhonda]

Which bit of your post was "facetious", book? All of it?

Please do indicate that in future so that people don't waste time replying to points you raise only to find out you think it's all a big joke.

[fun1nthesun]

What I have found is that on mumsnet, very often there will be a thread such as "should those who fight in syria have their passports taken away?" and then lo and behold, a week later, the government is "considering" further action with regards to taking passports away.

I think this thread is one of those market research before changing policy thread of which there are so many.

[BookABooSue]

Phaedra which RC school in Scotland has refused access to a DC? I attended an RC school with DCs of lots of different faiths. Non-RC DCs were not excluded.

^Denominational schools are open to pupils of all denominations, all faiths and none, in the same way that non-denominational schools are. This reflects the duties outlined for education authorities in the Education (Scotland)
Act 1980.^

Suburban I managed to ascertain that posters saying they didn't agree with lack of access in education actually meant they were annoyed about lack of access on the grounds of faith rather than any other criteria so I assume they can read my post without pointers. However, if you struggle to accept my valid point about access to education being impacted by lots of issues then feel free to ignore my posts.

[PhaedraIsMyName]

Book your comment about specialised arts schools was neither facetious nor valid.It was irrelevant and ridiculous.

So far as single sex schools are there any in the state system? I don't think so.

As for refusing entry to non RC children had I been relying on the state system as I'm not a hypocrite my son could not have attended a school (paid for by my taxes) if it were RC. And presumably RC children get preference.

[SuburbanRhonda]

I'm not struggling to accept a point you haven't actually made, book, but I will ignore your posts.

[BookABooSue]

Phaedra perhaps my point wasn't clear:
My DS can't access a single sex education within the state system but a DD can
Yes there is single sex schooling provision for girls within the state system in Scotland but the same city doesn't provide single sex education for boys within the state system.

So Phaedra you decided not to send your DS to an RC school because you're not RC and didn't want to be a hypocrite - that doesn't mean he was barred from entry.

I'm wasting my time. You refuse to acknowledge that there are other criteria that impact access to education. That our education system does not offer equal access to all DCs. However, it seems to be that's ok as long as it's not about faith.

Although I do wonder if faith schools were returned to the churches or bodies outwith the state, if the people who complain about faith schools would then be complaining about single-sex schools or special interest schools creating barriers to entry or would they just be complaining that there are not enough school places? Because if removing faith schools means you still have a problem of parked cars or putting your DC into the school closest to your house then it isn't actually about faith schools. That was the point I was making but that's the point that's being ignored.

I would have no problem with faith schools being removed from the state system and returned to their origins. I do have a problem with non end-users calling for a provision to be banned and I do feel uncomfortable when people start sentences with 'I don't want my tax used for x,y,z because I don't use it'

fun1nthesun I believe the Labour party was arguing last month for a cross-party group to look into faith schools.

[fun1nthesun]

Ahhh ok thanks BookaBoo. I think sometimes policy makers will "test the waters" and sometimes people just discuss topical issues. *Hopes to get quoted in a paper but please let it be a broadsheet

[PhaedraIsMyName]

I do hope policy makers are testing the waters on this. There's no justification for tax payers to fund faith schools.

[PhaedraIsMyName]

Re state funded single sex schools in Scotland, this is from a BBC report in 2013

"So why has single-sex education, particularly in the state sector, dwindled so far in Scotland as to be almost extinct?

Ken Cunningham, who is general secretary of School Leaders Scotland, which represents Scottish secondary schools, believes that education has moved on."

[BookABooSue]

Phaedra if you live in the city involved then the provision of single sex education isn't extinct. It's one of the few state high schools in the area.

Personally, with all the talk of referendums, I'd love a referendum on the topic of faith schools' funding. In RL despite working across the UK, with people in education, the media and of all faiths and none, I've only met one person who wanted to close faith schools. However on MN and in certain sections of the media, there is definitely a very vocal group who are anti-faith schools. I would be interested to see how that translated to votes.

The number of DCs at faith schools would imply that there is a demand for them (even discounting the % whose parents send them to faith schools but complain they don't want to send them there iyswim) but the anti-faith schools media coverage would imply something else. I'd like to see what the silent majority feel about the issue.

[WelshBlackbird]

"In our catchment area we have a Welsh school, a Catholic school and 3 comprehensive schools (One is a grammar school)."

So which is it - a comprehensive school or a grammar school? It can't be both.


There are 3 comprehensive schools plus a grammar school within our catchment area. Do you have a problem with that??

Also my DD is due to attend a catholic school next week. The pupil cost of her attending an RC school is lower for the taxpayer, as her place - as well as all the other children within the school - is part funded by the Church.

So in all the taxpayer should be happy that my DD's education herein will not be costing as much as it would have had she remained within in her previous school for the duration of her education.

[mamma12]

No you aren't. I find it so sad when people find it apt to segregate children and I don't think it bides well for tolerance and understanding in future generations. Religious parents at my old school sent their kids to extra curricular religious activities and that's fine. Thank goodness all the muslim, sikh and christian kids had been shipped off to some isolation unit in my day.