to think faith schools should be banned?

[fluffymouse]

Not just because they aren't inclusive or diverse, but also because of the local impact.

My nearest school is a faith school. Every day when I drive to work, I see dozens of cars parked along the street of the school with parents dropping off children. They park everywhere on a very narrow street including double yellow lines and the zig zag lines outside the school. It seems like nobody walks to this school, as it quite simply does not serve the local community.

Local people have no chance of sending their children to this school unless they are off the faith, and they have very strict criteria for this. Meanwhile locals also have a lot of congestion to put up with. There is obviously also a big environmental impact.

Aibu to think that state schools should be inclusive, and not exclusive based on faith grounds, as all tax payers are contributing towards their running costs?

[mamma12]

• I would have really missed out

[FraidyCat]

I have a vague impression that the church's financial contribution to most faith schools is less than 10%, and is often in the form of use of land and buildings. Whatever it is, the proportion of places reserved for faith followers should be in proportion to the church's financial contribution.

[ritachaher]

Wrong...

[writtenguarantee]

Book ^Denominational schools are open to pupils of all denominations, all faiths and none, in the same way that non-denominational schools are. This reflects the duties outlined for education authorities in the Education (Scotland)
Act 1980.^

I don't know about Scotland, but this is also true in England. But there is a catch. A faith school can give priority to children of a certain faith, effectively barring children of other faiths from the school if the school is oversubscribed. If a school is not full from students of the chosen faith then the school must accept other students who wish to attend.

In no other place in England can you do this. Only in our schools. If you are an employer, a shop keeper, an inn keeper etc etc etc if you say "christians will be served first" you will be put on the naughty square pronto.

[writtenguarantee]

So far as single sex schools are there any in the state system? I don't think so.

there are many single sex state schools of both genders.

While a little dicey, this of course has nothing to do with your parents' faith or lack of. We all have the same opportunity to go any gender segregated school (boys to boys and girls to girls).

Not the same thing.

[minifingers]

"Whatever it is, the proportion of places reserved for faith followers should be in proportion to the church's financial contribution."

I think that's a very reasonable and proportionate response to the argument that we can't afford to force church schools to stop discriminating.

[angelos02]

Its just plain daft in this day and age that children are segregated by whatever guff their parents happen to believe. Why not have schools for kids of tory voters, vegetarians etc. Nonsense.

[WelshBlackbird]

Whatever happened to freedom of choice?

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

whatever happened to freedom of choice?

From whose perspective? If you're a practising Catholic in the catchment for one state secondary you don't like the look of, and you also have the choice to send out of catchment to an RC school, nothing happened to freedom of choice: you've got one.

If you're in the same place and you're not a practising Catholic, you don't have that choice, do you?

[writtenguarantee]

From whose perspective?

Effectively, a C of E person has about 50% more school choice than I do.

[writtenguarantee]

I think that's a very reasonable and proportionate response to the argument that we can't afford to force church schools to stop discriminating.

For an institution (C of E) that bangs on about how they are the base of british morality, I find it odd that they support discrimination on a mass scale when most Brits find this appalling (as is evidenced by the fact that discrimination is outlawed pretty much in every other part of life).

No. Tell the C of E, Catholics, Muslims etc that they must follow this basic wonderful idea of non-discrimination LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. I don't think schools will close.

[WelshBlackbird]

From whose perspective? If you're a practising Catholic in the catchment for one state secondary you don't like the look of, and you also have the choice to send out of catchment to an RC school, nothing happened to freedom of choice: you've got one.

If you're in the same place and you're not a practising Catholic, you don't have that choice, do you?

Ummm..... Yes! We are not practising Catholics but my dd has been accepted into a Catholic school.

[SuburbanRhonda]

welsh, it's a different thing to not choose a school because you don't like the look of it than to be excluded from even applying because of the religious beliefs of your parents.

In your example, the practising Catholic still has a choice; just because they don't like one of the choices doesn't make it any less of a choice.

The non-Catholic does not have the choice because the school would not admit them because they are not a Catholic.

Your DD is in an unusual position of being offered a place in a Catholic school while not being a Catholic, though it does depend on whether the school is popular and over-subscribed. My local, outstanding Catholic secondary is always over-subscribed, so does not admit any non-Catholics.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Exactly what Rhonda said - sometimes you will get a place in a faith school if not of the right faith, but if the school is oversubscribed they will fill their places with children of that faith first, offering no choice to those who live near by.

Since many Catholic schools are over-subscribed, I think the no choice situation probably arises more often.

[FraidyCat]

Link to article that seems to indicate that faith funding of faith state schools is nearer 0% than the 10% I mentioned previously.

accordcoalition.org.uk/2013/12/27/faith-schools-in-england-now-almost-entirely-state-funded/

[FraidyCat]

We are not practising Catholics but my dd has been accepted into a Catholic school

It depends where you are in the country and how far you are from the school.

I have just delivered my daughter to her new CoE school. It's third-closest school to us, but we only got in because of religious preference. We know people who live near to us who didn't.

The local authority (Tower Hamlets) is demographically seventy-something percent Bangladeshi-origin, and this school has historically had about 50% intake from that demographic (which is very low for the area, showing that population are being discriminated against.) However because of changes in housing market since the financial crisis, I think, "white British" families who would previously have moved away before children were school age are now staying in the area. I did not notice a single Bangladeshi face in the Reception class. (Did not conduct a thorough survey, just did not notice any when I glanced around.)

The second closest school to us has a virtually 100% Bangladeshi intake. Teachers said that last year they had a couple of white kids, but they left after the first or second term.

So second and third closest schools to me: the CoE one has few or no non-Bangladeshi kids in Reception, the other likely has nothing but. I doubt that a drop from 50% to near 0% in the number attending my daughter's school is purely due to changes in Bangladeshi parent preferences.

[AngelsOnHigh]

This thread has been going forever.

It's called Freedom of Choice. Don't be pissed off with the school. It's the parents in the cars that are irritating you.

My DC both attend Catholic single sex schools but we have a Islamic school nearby.

Every Friday everyone knows not to go that way because of the high traffic volume and the number of people attending prayers during certain hours.

Doesn't worry us in the least. We live and let live.

[FraidyCat]

Re. my last post: I must be overstating the degree of discrimination, as far as I know faith schools only reserve a proportion of places. Perhaps when I spend more than 10 seconds looking around my daughters class I will see the local children who managed to get in based on distance alone.

[writtenguarantee]

I must be overstating the degree of discrimination, as far as I know faith schools only reserve a proportion of places.

No, you are not. that depends on both the local authority and the school. Many of the schools in London have 2/3 to 100% of the places reserved for the devoted.

Even if it's 10% of the places it's wrong. Imagine an employer saying he reserves 10% of jobs for christians. that would be met with outrage.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Some Church schools reserve 'foundation places' and have majority 'communiuty places'. Faith schools can put the faithful as their first priority in the case of over-subscription, after 'looked-after children'.

[writtenguarantee]

Some Church schools reserve 'foundation places' and have majority 'communiuty places'. Faith schools can put the faithful as their first priority in the case of over-subscription, after 'looked-after children'.

some put faithful ahead of looked after.

[WelshBlackbird]

Your DD is in an unusual position of being offered a place in a Catholic school while not being a Catholic, though it does depend on whether the school is popular and over-subscribed. My local, outstanding Catholic secondary is always over-subscribed, so does not admit any non-Catholics.

From this I guess you have applied to a Catholic School for your dc? If this is the case why are you against Faith Schools? Is it simply because your child didn't gain a place, therefore NO child should gain a place??

If you did not apply for a place at this particular school then how do you know your child would be refused entry? Plus if you did not apply then you surely would be happy with the school of your choice? Strange thread!

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

When DS1 was due to start school we were effectively excluded from 3 out the 4 nearest primary schools because they were Christian. I've just checked how many children from the local community those 3 schools took in the latest round of offers
School 1 - 42 places- all faith -no community
School 2 - 30 places -13 faith-3 siblings - 14 community
School 3 - 30 places - 30 faith - no community

So out of 102 places - 14 went to the local community and 85 went to faith applicants

This is in a part of London that has a very diverse population (Council Ward is in top 1% in England on Simpson Diversity Index and where about 44% of the population are Christian)

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Note - Schools were Christian my DC are not (badly worded opening sentence)