to think faith schools should be banned?

[fluffymouse]

Not just because they aren't inclusive or diverse, but also because of the local impact.

My nearest school is a faith school. Every day when I drive to work, I see dozens of cars parked along the street of the school with parents dropping off children. They park everywhere on a very narrow street including double yellow lines and the zig zag lines outside the school. It seems like nobody walks to this school, as it quite simply does not serve the local community.

Local people have no chance of sending their children to this school unless they are off the faith, and they have very strict criteria for this. Meanwhile locals also have a lot of congestion to put up with. There is obviously also a big environmental impact.

Aibu to think that state schools should be inclusive, and not exclusive based on faith grounds, as all tax payers are contributing towards their running costs?

I'm a Christian whose children attended a CofE school (by catchment not intent) and I agree that the time of faith state schools has passed.

There is loads of time outside of school to teach and practise a faith and I think any benefit to those of faith adding school time to that learning is outweighed by the benefits individually and culturally of mixing with a wide range of people.

Without state faith schools it would be easier to implement simpler admission criteria and have fairer access for all children including those in areas of over-subscription.

Parking is however entirely separate.

faith schools promote a demographic bias which means they cream off a certain type of pupil. I think that's the most legitimate argument against them- that if the criteria didnt exist, all schools in the area would have a more mixed demographic.

I think the most legitimate argument against them is that they are the only state funded service that is allowed to practise religious discrimination.

Our local outstanding Catholic secondary school has 17 admissions criteria, of which number 17 is "other children", meaning children whose parents do not practise any faith at all. It is now impossible for any child to get in whose parents are not religious.

What's even more shocking is that, although Looked After Children are meant to have the highest priority for admission to any school, at this school it's only baptised Catholic Looked After Children who enjoy this privilege. Looked After Children who are not baptised Catholics are priority number 10, behind all other categories of baptised Catholic children. How they get away with that is a mystery.

And because children are bussed in in their droves (until last year paid for by all local taxpayers), the traffic outside the school (the main road into the town) goes down to one lane for about 45 minutes twice a day.

People are saying faith schools aren't selective but of course they are. They say they welcome all faiths but they know for example a non religious child is not going to be sent to an Islamic school. They don't have to say no because they aren't inclusive enough to attract the applications anyway. Catholic schools do have a mix though, I agree but this has happened over time.

So owl, what about single sex schools? Should they be banned as they discriminate on the basis of gender? If the main criteria is distance to the school gate, then surely some schools effectively discriminate on the basis of income?

What would actually happenif they were outlawed?

Now remember, much of British law is about property, and he state does not own the older schools. So all the VA schools would need replacing (I do not think the forced state appropriation of another person/body's property is a good thing).

How will the taxpayer afford to replace them all?

Most faith schools are CofE VC ones, which have no religious criteria.

In cities, the Christian denomination faith schools are as (or more) diverse than than their population (because many new arrivals to the country go to them). In villages, they are the only school, and as diverse as the population is.

There perceived lack of diversity is in only a vary narrow section of VA schools (usually outer cities and some large towns) but it's actually not that different from other (non faith) schools colonised by the middle classes. And that colonisation will continue (for it happens already even when all schools are community criteria).

Non Christian faith schools may well be far less diverse. Can anyone comment (or provide good links) on the situation of Jewish, Hindu and Moslem schools in Britain?

It's too expensive to get rid of Faith schools. That's why it's never been done. In the case of Catholicisim for example, the Catholic Church typically owns the freehold of the land its schools are built on.

The 'taxpayer funded' thing is a red herring, IMO.

I'm in a different country (Australia), but people use the same arguments. The government here actually gives faith schools less $ per child than it gives government schools; the shortfall is made up by the fees paid by parents and by private fundraising by the schools.

Therefore, it actually costs 'the taxpayer' (ignoring the fact that the parents of children in faith schools are also taxpayers) less to have children in faith schools than in government schools (where they would otherwise be).

Faith schools give preference to children of families who practice that faith because they view religion as a holistic thing, not something you just 'do at home'. Children not of that faith are welcome to any places left.

To call a spade a spade: people here vie to get their kids into faith schools because they tend to produce better academic results and have stronger discipline. This is probably because they are not as strictly bound by whatever (shite) standards & procedures are mandated in the government schools at any given time.

People who are anti-faith schools would be better off not making spurious arguments about parking and funding, and focus on pressuring the govt to fix up the non-faith schools that they've chosen to send their children to.

lesshaste don't most schools teach about religion? I thought there was this particular subject known as RE, you see...

Hmm I am no fan of faith schools.

but I think your traffic/local community argument is invalid. DS goes to a fantastic community primary with fantastic links to the local community, catchment of less than half a mile but parking outside the school a nightmare!

I went to church for 3 years (THREE YEARS!) to get DD into the nearest faith school, because it was the best academically in the area that didn't select by academic testing.

As a result of my commitment to her education, she now travels by train and the car stays in the garage. Therefore my family is doing the local community and environment a favour by keeping my car at home.

Therefore the evidence shows that actually by taking children from a wide catchment and being sited near a station, faith schools are an ecological benefit. Fact.

Thinking about it, YANBU. Everyone is entitled to a faith but it is a private matter and should be kept to the home and churches where people bring their private faith together with other people with the same faith. There is/should be no room for faith in politics, the law or in education, other than in a completely broad and all inclusive way (such as educating children about all the different faiths in equal measure in school).

Again the school I work at has a wide range of children from different faith background and are all celebrated. I have had displays about Chinese New Year, Hinduism, Islam etc etc.

LOL

Chinese New Year (actually Lunar New Year) is not a religious event and if you are teaching about other faiths it should not be lumped in with other faiths or etc.

The depth of study is different vampyre. And it would be unusual for a non-faith school to worship I guess. That said, this varies from school to school anyway.

bunting that's interesting. I'm happy for my kids to go to a faith primary school, but have ruled out single sex secondary for them as that just seems so daft.

'Fact'

According to your study of ONE

Faith schools are only "better" if they are over subscribed. Any school which is selective, in any way, is going to be "better" than a non selective school because if you have to jump through a hoop to get in you are going to attract more committed and involved parents. The "faithness" is immaterial- as a poster on here once said,if a school required parents to learn to juggle to get a place, that school would do better than one that didn't have an entry requirement.

Nobody seems to have commented on my point about faith hospitals.........

And that colonisation will continue (for it happens already even when all schools are community criteria)

This is the crux of it. Whatever the criteria are, certain parents will make damn sure they meet them and those are the same parents who will support the school, send their kids in having had breakfast and done their homework, donate to the PTA, volunteer to read etc etc. Religion is actually a relatively cheap criteria for these parents to meet - if you live in Tooting, being Catholic saves you GBP300/wk in school fees - just for 1 hour of your time each Sunday. I know that sounds cynical but I've heard people joke about it, except they're not really joking.

Auntie the school my son is going to is a CofE VC one with LOTS of religious aspects (much to my surprise)

The link between faith schools and parking is ridiculous.

In my town we have 8 secondary schools. 2 select on faith, 2 on gender 2 on academic ability. The 2 left are the worst, and are single sex which I don't believe in.

So I pretend to believe in god so they can go to a mixed comp that they can cycle to.

Traffic btw is not a side issue. Car use is a big problem for society for many reasons. Local authorities have targets to reduce car use and access to local schools is a real problem.

Not if your journey to work takes you past my local Catholic secondary, less. (See my post upthread).

Nobody seems to have commented on my point about faith hospitals.........

I didn't comment on it because it doesn't make sense.

Do you think that an NHS hospital should be able to refuse to treat somebody because they don't go to Church? Of course you don't.
So you don't agree with faith schools then. Simple.

Faith schools don't refuse to educate somebody because they don't go to church. They turn students away if they are full, and the student then goes to another school.

Faith schools don't refuse to educate somebody because they don't go to church. They turn students away if they are full, and the student then goes to another school.

So, you'd be perfectly happy being turned away from the outstanding NHS hospital because their waiting lists are all full of patients. After all, you can go to the worse hospital which is a difficult journey away.

There are usually a hard core of twattish parents in all schools who park like entitled cunts. I would like to see more CPOs handing out fines on a regular basis or clamping them.

Your other point I agree with as I
Feel faith is for home and school should be a place if self discovery and education not further indoctrination if a religion chosen by parents.

Our local catchment is C/E and we had no say in our children being forced to pray etc.

All faith schools should be banned in my opinion.

I'd be okay with being turned away from any hospital if it was full. What else are they supposed to do - turf people out of their beds?!