To get annoyed when parents spell their kids name wrong

[HelloSteve]

...and then they get annoyed when people constantly spell their names "wrong" (aka the right way)? Or buy personalised items with their names spelt their way?

Not really a big deal I know, but I what do you expect when you give your child a name spelled in a way to be yoo-niq?

Over the past couple of weeks I've heard of a Emma-Leigh, a Sophy and a Jordyn. I can't help thinking 'poor kids they're going to have to go through their whole lives having to correct people'. It seems people don't think about that though.

I know a woman who has two grown up daughters called Jemma (I assume they meant for that to be Gemma) and a Hollie (again, I assume Holly) and she always gets annoyed when people don't ask and just assume they're spelt Gemma and Holly, but I don't know why. She should have expected that/be used to that now? I know she would constantly get irritated when the kids were at school and received Christmas cards/party invites with their names spelt wrong but honestly I have little sympathy. What was she expecting when she spelt her kids names wrong?

Your thoughts?

When names have been spelled a certain way in our society for hundreds of years it's ridiculous to deliberately misspell them.
And herein lies your problem, I think. "Our society"? What are you talking about? Are you talking about the UK as it exists today? Clearly not - there are a significant number of people choosing to give less conventional names. Are they not part of "society", then? Or are you talking about the British Empire which burned people out of their homes, or put them on slave ships, or removed their children and placed them in orphanages, or stole and renamed their lands? Because those people's children are also part of "our society". And they never agreed to your spelling in the first place.

Do you know why "Dublin" is called "Dublin"? It's an English bastardisation of the Irish place name. Duibhlinn. A "correct" translation would have seen the city called "Blackpool". (Do you understand why this is relevant???)

Are you the part of the "our society" that gets to decide what is OK and what is not? I am not a part of "your" society, then, because I don't share your values. But "your" society is not the only one that counts. What you really mean is that in "your" culture, these names are not acceptable or are "incorrect". But your culture is only one of many that co-exist. The middle-class doesn't own the language, I am happy to report, and the days of the Great British Empire are over.

It isn't a problem for me, though, whatever you may think. Correct spelling matters.

Almost every town, city and village in my native country (Wales) has an English and Welsh version, the English version is more often than not not a literal translation. Lots of names have English and Welsh (and Irish and Scottish) variations. All of which are correct. Bastardising the spelling of a conventional name (as I described earlier) is not a cultural variation, it's just poor spelling.

I do know why Dublin is called Dublin, obviously, but I don't see why it matters in this context. I really don't. Doublyn is not the correct spelling for that city in any culture or language, it's a misspelling. Just as Samual is not the correct spelling of Samuel in any culture or language. I don't understand why you can't see that.

Banging on about the British Empire is totally irrelevant. We aren't discussing names from other cultures we are discussing misspelling of English names. At least I am.

It isn't a problem for me, though, whatever you may think. Correct spelling matters.
Correct spelling does matter. The correct spelling of a name is the spelling used by the individual whose name it is. Obviously.

Bastardising the spelling of a conventional name (as I described earlier) is not a cultural variation, it's just poor spelling.
No. I'm talking about rejecting the linguistic conventions of an oppressor culture.

I do know why Dublin is called Dublin, obviously, but I don't see why it matters in this context. I really don't. Doublyn is not the correct spelling for that city in any culture or language, it's a misspelling. Just as Samual is not the correct spelling of Samuel in any culture or language. I don't understand why you can't see that.
Banging on about the British Empire is totally irrelevant.
These things are entirely relevant. I can see that you don't understand it. So I'll just ask you to please either educate yourself, or at least refrain from words like "daft" or "ignorant" to describe people engaging in a legitimate practice that you don't, or don't want to, understand. It is bigoted.

We aren't discussing names from other cultures we are discussing misspelling of English names. At least I am.
I'm banging my head against a wall here, aren't I? We are discussing names from other cultures, and so are you - you just don't want to acknowledge these cultures. Does it help to explain that "culture" and "nationality" are not synonyms? Or that you don't live in an exclusively English society? Or that people who live here are not bound by an essentialist definition of UK "culture"?

Each to their own.

Alis- I told my friend Siobahn that her name was spelled incorrectly!

In my defence, I saw it written for the first time on her student ID (we met at college), and thought it was their mistake. She just said something like 'that's how my parents spelled it'.

You are banging your head against a wall. I'm talking about bad spelling. The Samual I know is white middle class English as are most of DCs I've known with unconventional spelling of traditional names.

And I do think it's daft. Not a cultural statement or a rejection of anything.

Your attempt to patronise me has fallen on deaf ears, I'm probably better educated than you are. Nowhere have I said I live in an exclusively English society, I don't. I'm Welsh and Welsh speaking - not English, although that is what I taught.

No, you're probably not. :)

Worst is when parents and then subsequently the child/whole family misunderstand how a name is pronounced.

There was a designer on a TV DIY programme called Sian, and she pronounced it Cyan. I saw an interview where she said her parents had always thought that was how it was pronounced. As far as she was concerned that was how she wanted it said and that was that.

Embarrassing IMO.

Just to lighten things up a bit .

I give you La - sha, pronounced Ladasha.

Actually I think it's clever and cool, but maybe that's just me

Le-a is just an urban legend, though. Another story to put down black Americans, similar to female, pronounced fee mall ay etc.

www.snopes.com/racial/language/le-a.asp

I can't imagine looking at a person and thinking they must be X or Y because of their name unless they explicitly tell me that they chose their name. If I meet a Samual, I know nothing about him, just that his parents chose a name that is more often than not,spelled Samuel.

Returning to your roots and embracing names and spellings from your culture is one thing. Making something up is another.

I live in Canada at the moment, and my children go to school with a number of children with First Nations heritage. As a result of government and church interventions there are now very few native speakers, but there is a movement to revitalise the use of the First Nation languages (for example Secwepmectsín is taught at the school). If families started to use traditional names again that would be a cultural movement (and interesting as the written languages are very different to European norms). Continuing to use the names of the colonisers but misspelling them rather less so.

Thing 1: using a pre-existing name from the past. Which may or may not have had a "correct spelling" - in any language. Some would not even have been written down.

Thing 2: "mis-spelling" a name 'given' to (forced upon?) your culture by the colonisers as a deliberate act of appropriation.

Black Americans don't have always have clear "roots" to "return to". The knowledge of their origins is one of the many things that was taken away. Using an "African" (as if it were all monolithic culture) name that may or may not have been a genuine part of your own heritage is arguably less "real" than an invented name which is part of the current culture into which your child is born.

People have been enslaved and murdered and seen their own traditions systematically destroyed, their children forcibly removed and renamed with "correct" names...and there are people on this earth still willing to call them "daft" and "ignorant" because they wish to make up their own names. It's repulsive.

Thing 3: Without having the deliberate motivation of Thing 1 or Thing 2, using a non-conventional spelling for a name just because one likes it or one doesn't really give a shit how everyone else spells it. Or because Thing 1 and Thing 2 have entered into common usage - and why not?

Three Things that no reasonable person ought to have an issue with.

People have been enslaved and murdered and seen their own traditions systematically destroyed, their children forcibly removed and renamed with "correct" names...and there are people on this earth still willing to call them "daft" and "ignorant" because they wish to make up their own names. It's repulsive.

Don't deliberately misrepresent what I say. I've already made it clear I was not speaking about anywhere other than the UK. It is disingenuous on your part to pretend otherwise.

It's extremely unlikely that anyone in Samual's heritage has been enslaved or murdered since the Romans came. Hyperbole in debate is irrational and hysterical. It negates any argument you make.

"I've already made it clear I was not speaking about anywhere other than the UK."

1. Just to clarify, is it OK to use your own variation of a name if you live in the UK but your family hasn't been here since Roman times. I think that would apply to quite a lot of people?

2. According to 'Behindthename', my new favourite website, the origin of Samuel is Shemu'el. Is it OK to use an apostrophe in this instance or would you still run the risk of people thinking you have a low socioeconomic status?

3. Is there any flexibility for people who would argue that 'Samual' might be a closer interpretation of the vowel sounds in the Hebrew original?

4. Is it OK to use 'Samuil' if you can prove that you are at most 3rd generation Russian?

My problem is that I really can't tell somebody's racial and cultural heritage based on first impressions - I'd probably have to check how they spelt their name anyway. I find that isn't usually a problem because as much as I might be able to make a fair stab at somebody's first name, the chances of me hearing and spelling their second name correctly are fairly low.

Islam was forced on Iran - there you will find traditional Persian names alongside traditional arabic religious names. People don't do weird spellings or pronunciations. Or maybe they will start messing with the arab names a few years down the line...

The 'Female'/'Fe-mah-lee' is from a film (I forget which).

My sister has taught in the US for many years (all over) and has come across many weird and wonderful names - its not a cultural/racial/class thing.

Islam was forced on Iran - there you will find traditional Persian names alongside traditional arabic religious names. People don't do weird spellings or pronunciations. Or maybe they will start messing with the arab names a few years down the line...

The 'Female'/'Fe-mah-lee' is from a film (I forget which).

My sister has taught in the US for many years (all over) and has come across many weird and wonderful names - its not a cultural/racial/class thing.

I went to school with a white girl who had Female on her bc in place of a name, and we called her Femahlay for a joke. So these things do happen.

I am mildly irritated that people have begun to spelll my dc's name the American way. Why!? The English way was the correct spelling over a decade ago, but now people have to ask. Or they just go ahead and get it wront.

Giving your child a stupid spelling of a conventional name = throwing off the oppressive essentialist shackles of the colonising culture = the funniest thing I have read in MN in years

I shall enjoy sharing that theory at school.

I have just discovered that DSs name originally was most likely female. Those darned Greeks ("they invented homosexuality, Father Ted")!

Jazzing up names is like people who get a car or house and stick on all the bells and whistles on it to personalise it and make it unique.

"Giving your child a stupid spelling of a conventional name = throwing off the oppressive essentialist shackles of the colonising culture = the funniest thing I have read in MN in years".

Why?

I imagine mosts people choose the spelling of their child's name for no other reason than they like it. However, brdgrl was referring to Black American culture. Are you not familiar with the reasons why a Black American might have mixed feelings about being called Elizabeth like their great grandmother?

(psssst! hey, riders! There are black people in the UK too! AND the English were slavers!)

I think casual racism is the quickest way to negate an argument, but hey - carry on.

But then why not name your child after someone you actually admire rather than "here's one in the eye for you Mr Man".

Our DS is named after my dad. Its also the name of numerous bastards in history and a king who is no friend of my country of origin.

merrymouse brdgrl didn't specify Black American culture, others were clear they were talking about UK I tend to agree in the case of "Dayzee" or "Adel" or "Adelle" or "Lindzee ( some recent awful spellings I've seen)
"Giving your child a stupid spellings of a conventional name = throwing off the oppressive essentialist shackles of the colonising culture = the funniest thing I have read in MN in years " is spot on

As for
Giving your child a stupid spelling of a conventional name = throwing off the oppressive essentialist shackles of the colonising culture = the funniest thing I have read in MN in years -
May I suggest that you read a bit further? Maybe even OFF mumsnet? Try bell hooks, Edward Said, Langston Hughes, Salman Rushdie.
For a start.