To get annoyed when parents spell their kids name wrong

[HelloSteve]

...and then they get annoyed when people constantly spell their names "wrong" (aka the right way)? Or buy personalised items with their names spelt their way?

Not really a big deal I know, but I what do you expect when you give your child a name spelled in a way to be yoo-niq?

Over the past couple of weeks I've heard of a Emma-Leigh, a Sophy and a Jordyn. I can't help thinking 'poor kids they're going to have to go through their whole lives having to correct people'. It seems people don't think about that though.

I know a woman who has two grown up daughters called Jemma (I assume they meant for that to be Gemma) and a Hollie (again, I assume Holly) and she always gets annoyed when people don't ask and just assume they're spelt Gemma and Holly, but I don't know why. She should have expected that/be used to that now? I know she would constantly get irritated when the kids were at school and received Christmas cards/party invites with their names spelt wrong but honestly I have little sympathy. What was she expecting when she spelt her kids names wrong?

Your thoughts?

Margaret to Peg

One of the meanings of Margaret is pearl, in one Persian translation. In Greek Peggy means pearl...

Or it's one of those Celtic first letter changes, Meggy Peggy, may be utterly meaningless, just one of those family names, Meggle Peggle, Meg Peg

I worked with a woman called Margaret when I was about 17. It gave the grown ups endless laughs to send me to look for Pearl or Peg or Meg or Margaret... it took about a year for her to explain it to me! SO I have reason to remember any Meggy Peggy with a little distrust

And if you (or this hypothetical recruiter) are racist/ classist enough to discount a person with a name that suggests black working class then being called Emily isn't going to help our candidate. She'll get filtered out at the interview stage.

Absolutely.

It isn't bigoted to think that spelling Samuel as Samual is daft. Similarly with Feebee or Zowee. They are names that exist and have conventional forms of spelling. It's plain ignorant not to use an accepted form and it looks silly, whatever colour or class you are.

I'm sorry, but this position is both bigoted and ignorant.

And really deeply offensive.

If you want to understand why black/Irish/Indian/Scottish/Native peoples might choose to take possession of the powerful act of naming their children, why their might be a deep and abiding interest in reclaiming some linguistic autonomy or sense of self-definition through the most central expression of self-identity after generations of having your families, societies, and cultures destroyed and your children and your places renamed by others...there are opportunities to educate yourself about the topic.

On the other hand, if you wish to remain ignorant, that is your choice, but make no mistake - it is ignorance.

there, not their.

brdgrl

If you want to understand why black/Irish/Indian/Scottish/Native peoples might choose to take possession of the powerful act of naming their children, why their might be a deep and abiding interest in reclaiming some linguistic autonomy or sense of self-definition through the most central expression of self-identity after generations of having your families, societies, and cultures destroyed and your children and your places renamed by others...there are opportunities to educate yourself about the topic.

It's about spelling not naming. When names have been spelled a certain way in our society for hundreds of years it's ridiculous to deliberately misspell them. It's ignorant to ignore the traditional spelling with a desire to be "different" and inflict that on your poor DCs who will be judged and laughed at. If you are going to retain the pronunciation then retain the spelling. I wasn't speaking about names in languages other than English. I have a Welsh name spelt the traditional Welsh way. Cultural identity in naming is important, of course it is. Deliberate misspelling is pretentious or ignorant.

This thread shows how much prejudice there is about the spelling of names. This prejudice is clearly out there and in society as a whole. It might not be right, but it is there.

I can see that for some people choosing an unusual spelling is a reclaiming of control over their heritage. They are free to do that. I know that many Afro-Americans choose unique spellings or names, to show they are NOT white. It is a way of marki g themselves out as different. They want to show unity with the Afro-A,erican community and fit in there and mark themselves as different from the white Georges amd Emmas. Their unusual names ans spellings achieve this, but can create problems later when they WANT to be accepted, in terms of jobs etc. so it is. Double edged sword - brings belonging to the group they seek to join, but marks them out as different, which can be seen as both good and also a hi drance in the work place or broader society.
Other people have admitted that they have mis-spelled their child's name - there was no intention to return to an earlier form of the name, or to connect to some cultural heritage. They simply didn't know how to spell it.

When people see the names written down, they will not know WHY the child has a different spelling, only that they do have it. They are unlikely to give much thought to the reasoning behind it. And for most spellings which are minor differences, such as Mollie for Molly, they will probably barely notice. They will notice J'Leen or Danni-Elle though. This could be someone of Afro-American origin, marking themselves out as non-white, because doing this is important to them. Or it could be someone else who likes hyphens and apostrophes in names.

Others will see it and make assumptions. These might be right or not, but they are clearly expressed on this thread and in wider society.

I am not saying people should avoid giving their children these spellings and go for the bog standard ones. If they want to mark the,selves out as different in some way, that is absolutely fine. However I am sayi g they should do it in the knowledge of how society might see it, wrongly or rightly. Choosing a name with full awareness of the likely response to it, is what seems key.

I take the argument that prejudice is the responsibility of the holder, but you're going a step too far here. It's perfectly possible to acknowledge that all sorts of discriminations do exist and are indeed very common, without being bigoted oneself. What you do with the knowledge is another question, though.

Making any judgement based purely on a proxy for identity (which is the judgement people are making based on names) is discrimination.

There is research about name prejudice, but what it actually shows is institutional racism and classism. The names that clearly mark someone out at Other are those discriminated against. Those who have tried more to pass as white and middle class are likely to have less trouble than those who want to choose a name that advertises their race or class.

We can sit here and pretend it's about spelling but it's not. White middle-class English people often call their children all sorts of things that seem 'weird' and ridiculous to people who aren't part of that grouping, but those kinds of weird and ridiculous are seen as acceptable because those using those names have the power to determine what is and is not 'normal'.

Sneering at some kinds of names is indicative of deeply unpleasant aspects of society, dressed up as some sort of concern about spelling. Or worse, a concern about the wellbeing of children. That's especially insulting when it's society (including those sneering at the name) that's the problem not the name itself or the parents who bestowed it in the child.

It is a way of marki g themselves out as different. They want to show unity with the Afro-A,erican community and fit in there and mark themselves as different from the white Georges amd Emmas. Their unusual names ans spellings achieve this, but can create problems later when they WANT to be accepted, in terms of jobs etc. so it is. Double edged sword - brings belonging to the group they seek to join, but marks them out as different, which can be seen as both good and also a hi drance in the work place or broader society.

You do realise that what you are saying is that it is not acceptable to be black, and if you are, you should do your best to hide it because to fit in is to be like white people? Because that's deeply problematic.

Sneering at some kinds of names is indicative of deeply unpleasant aspects of society, dressed up as some sort of concern about spelling. Or worse, a concern about the wellbeing of children. That's especially insulting when it's society (including those sneering at the name) that's the problem not the name itself or the parents who bestowed it in the child.

There speaks someone who has never had to deal with DCs distressed by the name-calling and bullying caused by some names. DCs sometimes have a hard enough time in school, why make it worse by stamping them out as different when, mostly, they are desperate to belong? It isn't sneering to want words (including names) to be spelt correctly. It was my job as an English teacher to make sure spelling was correct.

Zowie Bowie and the Zappa children changed their names to something more conventional because they hated their given names. They aren't the only ones to have done that.

Honestly, children are bullied because there's a bully nearby looking for someone to bully. They aren't really bullied because of their name, or their hair colour, or their parents' sexuality or whatever other pretence people might like to make so as to in some way blame the victim. The same children would almost certainly be bullied if they were called Elizabeth and James, it's just that the excuse would be that they have funny hair, or something else equally arbitrary.

So why make it more difficult for children by giving bullies something obvious to pick on? And yes, they are bullied because their names have odd spellings or they have "out there" names. Pretending they aren't doesn't help.

I am saying what society is like.
I am saying that YES people are prejudiced against names which they think sound working class or non-white/British.
I am not saying it is right, but the reality.

I am not saying it is unacceptable to be anything other than white middle class. I am not saying everyone should give their children white middle class sounding names to avoid being seen as 'different'.

I totally understand that many people WANT to be seen as different. Part of reclaiming their ethnic/cultural/class past is to name their children to show belonging to a certain group. Isn't this what white middle classes do too...it is just that they align themselves to the white middle class?

So I don't know what we do. On one hand we can fight this prejudice by saying we WILL name our children with unusual names or spellings. It is our right and we refuse to pander to the prejudices of society. Our names and their spellings are important to us. Is this best?
Or we can say this prejudice exists. We don't want to deny who we are and pretend to be white middle class,mor suggest white middle class is the only or best way, but at the same time, we want to be part of a society and a successful part of it, where white middle class seem to have more influence. So we will avoid anything which very strongly marks us out as of one class or other group. Is this best?

It is the question about living within a society which has prejudice. Do we use our children as a weapon to fight it, or do we conform to help them avoid conflict.
Many people feel it is Fi e to fight these battles ourselves, but a different matter to co-opt our children into fighting them, when they have no say in the matter.

Of course, many groups choose their names to be different. They want to be seen as different and do not see a white middle class life and something to seek. They don't see the fact they might be judged for their name as a negative, but actually a positive, because they value everything there is about the group they are showing their allegiance to.

Zowie Bowie and the Zappa children changed their names to something more conventional because they hated their given names

Moon Unit Zappa is still called Moon Unit actually.

In fact a quick google shows they all kept their odd names I think.

The rock press isn't all that reliable, then, I'd read she'd changed it. She's known as Moon now, sources say.

You think she changed her name from Moon Unit to Moon? I don't think that's right (although I guess people just call her Moon) but if it was, what would that show? She hasn't changed it to Elizabeth or anything.

No, I accept that she didn't change her name and confirmed it.

Zowie Bowie is now Duncan Jones, a respected film director.

Yes I think zowie changed his name.

Dweezil Zappa changed it TO Dweezil from Ian.

Anyway none of this really matters, other than demonstrating that if you don't like your name or spelling you can change it.

Actually, I have a very unusual name. It's more common these days, but not much more, and was virtually unheard of in this country in the 1960s. Many people got it wrong when I was a kid, even though it was spelt correctly . It goes both ways.

I didn't bother changing it though, it's very much part of me now.

Oh I just looked it up and I (and you) are wrong about Zowie as well. Duncan is his given name, Zowie was always a middle name which he went by as a child.

He went by it because that's what his parents called him, amid a blaze of publicity at the time, he chose to go by Joey as a teenager then settled for Duncan in adulthood.

I thought the thread was about relatively ordinary names spelled weirdly. Surely that is different from off the wall names? Personally I'd not choose either for my children.

I'm not sure why choosing a traditional 'English' name and spelling it weirdly is reclaiming your heritage - surely choosing a traditional name from that heritage would be more meaningful?

Oh and I have a very unusual name and do not get arsy when it's mispronounced or misspelled. Why should I assume that someone else should know how to spell/pronounce it. I don't even get bothered if they do it repeatedly, although if they try and shorten it to something more frequently used I do tell them that I won't actually respond so better not.