To think it would benefit my 2 sons if their grandad's house didn't have to be sold in the future for care home fees

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We have 2 sons (aged 16 and 18). Everyone knows about the dire prospects of any teenagers today ever getting on the property ladder. My sons have always been close to their paternal grandparents. Grandmother died 4 years ago after having Alzheimer's for 7 years. She ended up in a home for last 6 months as my father in law looked after her at home.

He is now 81 and has been diagnosed with dementia. We own our house outright. My husband has one brother who is married, nearly 5o with no children. He owns 2 houses outright, one which he rents out.

We save extremely hard for our future and hopefully house deposits for our sons but the outlook is very bleak from reading the papers/watching the news and I find the outlook for their future very depressing - will they be living with us until they are 40

After the diagnosis my brother in law said he thought it would be a good idea to get his dad's bank balance down as he has nearly £90,000 in the bank. He and my husband withdrew £3,000 each a few months ago with my father in law's approval But I think it is too late for this to make any difference to any possible future care needs. Even if it was reduced to under £23,000 which I understand is the threshold limit for contributing towards your care, the care home would say the house had to be sold.

I am sure my father in law would like to see his only grandchildren live in the house when he passes away, rather than it being sold for care home fees. My brother in law has no children to worry about, has a brilliant final salary pension and a very large bank balance.

I don't know why he came up with the idea to start reducing the bank balance when it will make no difference to his dad having to fund his care if the time comes. No more money has been withdrawn yet but my husband is burying his head in the sand over this and is just agreeing with his older brother.

I do not want a penny from any estate, I would just love to see our sons get a helping hand for the future but this would be via us as the will is 50/50 between my husband and his brother.

I am a very positive person and don't get depressed about much but I feel utter despair at the housing prospects for today's teenagers.

Please tell me if I am being out of order .

What do you expect your sons to do to pay for their own housing? Yes the housing market is crap, I'm 38 and have only now been able to buy my own home. Your sons will be adults soon and have to take responsibility for themselves rather than relying on you or expecting their grandfather to give them his last money.

YAB a bit out of order, but can see where you are coming from.
Your dh needs to stand up to his brother regarding the draining of accounts.
It is difficult for young people today, but there have always been difficulties and you can't expect gps to make provision for them.
I have dc saving for house deposits so I know what its like, but they know its their responsibility not ours as parents or their gps

Yabu and a bit selfish in your thinking. Your children will need to find their own way in life just like anyone else.

What happens to your FIL now though? Would you be willing to provide care? It's fair enough to hope that your FIL can continue at home until his death and probably preferable for him but if he has dementia he will probably need care at some point. Could you live with him or vice versa? That would eliminate the care costs.

Yes, it would benefit your sons. But it would also benefit your FIL to have the best possible care in the final years of his life. And it's, y'know, his money.

I understand your despair about your children getting their own homes, but I take two things from your post:

1. your DH and your BIL are taking money out of your grandfather's account in a deliberate attempt to fiddle the system (fiddle in intent even if not fiddle in law).

2. you want your sons to have your PIL's home. But it's his home. He should be able to use whatever resources he needs from what he's built up during his lifetime to make his last years as comfortable as possible.

When he's gone, it will be half yours (or at least, your DH's). You can decide to do whatever you like with whatever is left when it's yours. But it isn't yours, yet, and this hovering over your children's grandfather's property really doesn't sit well with me.

I'm not writing from a perspective of wealth, BTW. I do understand your worry about your children, but metaphorically hovering over the assets of an ill old man is not the best way to channel that worry.

I can see where you're coming from but isn't it a bit dodgy to try and remove all his assest to benefit your family, thereby leaving the state to fund his care? Is it even legal?

I'm not sure there is much you can do about it at this stage to be perfectly honest. As he already had a diagnosis any attempt to evade care fees by transferring the house etc. will be open to clawback by the local authority. Same will go for his savings.

bit difficult to understand what you are asking tbh.

it would be gutting to entire estate disappear in care home fees. are you saying that the 90,000 should remain intact and pay for fees first? that seems reasonable, and also seems a bit shoddy to be taking money out for other things. but in reality, given that the will is 50/50 what are the chances of your sons ever living there, unless you can buy out bil should the need arise.

I think you are confusing two separate issues here.

I completely agree that it's wrong that people's homes have to be sold to pay for care home fees, especially when other people who don't have homes to sell get exactly the same care in exactly the same homes without having to pay a penny.

What happens to the house should be up to the person that owns it, and while it is likely that your sons would ultimately benefit if it didn't have to be sold, even without having to pay care home fees the house might have to be sold to pay dead persons tax.

It is tough but there is little you can do.

Dh's parents are both in a care home. They have ploughed through their savings, their house has been sold and now they are going through that.

If you drain your fil's bank account and he needs care, this may well be judged as "deprivation of assets" and you will have to pay it back. Your fil can give away a certain amount each year, but this must be documented and must have his approval.

Regarding the will, if your fil has left his assets 50/50, then that is what he wants. Furthermore, most solicitors will advise that it is right and just that someone's assets are divided equally amongst children, regardless of their circumstances. What if your bil were to fall on hard times/get divorced etc etc?

I understand your frustration: my friend has just inherited £1m from her parents' house (they "conveniently" died at home) and it does stick in one's craw that she is able to look after her dcs' future whilst my dcs' potential inheritance is going straight into the pockets of a care home.

Super, in terms of signing the house over to another relative, it would need to be done 7 years prior to care home admission to all be above board. In terms of savings, it would be a good idea to move these. Although I am unsure of the legalities of ownership if it is traceable and still under the 7 years when(and if) you require to pay CH fees. If he were to require care home admission, you could rent the property out in order to recoup some money to pay fees without losing the property. I don't think this is being cheeky or rude, I'm sure your fil would want to safeguard his family's future with the money and property he worked hard to accrue. It would also be worth obtaining power of attorney while he still has the capacity to make decisions, in order to make the process easier if and when the time comes to consider this.

I can't quite work out from your post what you're hoping for at the moment.

Were you wishing that your FiL had made a will leaving his money shared equally between his sons and his grandsons? Or that he didn't have to sell his house to fund care?

Could you simply arrange to have the £3000 that your DH has withdrawn put into an account for your sons?

Ultimately, your FiL does need care, and the great thing is that he has a financial asset in the form of his house, as well as his bank balance, that you can use to pay for that care.

Very grabby and greedy

Yes, maybe, but it's not their money.

And obviously, this would all need to be done with his permission, with no pressure on him to even choose this route.

Why should the taxpayer pay for care home fees for people who have assets that could be used to pay their fees? YABVU

and actually you are in a much better situation than most people, by owning your house outright. Presumably when your sons go to university or get jobs, and are in a position to buy their own houses, you could sell yours, downsize, and give them each a big chunk of money for a deposit.
I find it a bit of a cheek that between you all you prefer to strip your FIL's assets and get the tax payer to fund his care. Isn't part of the point of saving and acquring assests to pay for your care in old age?

Why would your kids live with you until they're 40? They can move out and rent. Would you really rather they live with you??

greedy venal people milking the account to fiddle the system.

We have found that you get the same care int the same home whether you are funding it or social services

I do know that when my husband and I are in our sixties we will get our house and finances sorted out to avoid the possible prospect of the house being sold to fund care. Of course I would want any grandchildren/children the have the money.

In this day and age if you have saved you are penalised . If you haven't got the funds and have enjoyed yourself it will be paid for by the state and you do get a choice of care home.

When we bought our first house 23 years ago my father in law was practically in tears wondering how we were going to cope with a mortgage - we both had good jobs and the house was only £33,000 !

Well, that's why people do inheritance tax planning - your FIL could have - legally - given away sums of money to you, his DC and your dc for years to avoid that money being in his estate when he dies. There are also other things you can do - might be worth seeing a financial advisor.
Not a great idea to try to drain bank account now - won't the Inland Revenue wonder where the money has gone?

I can sympathise to a certain extent, but the state cannot afford to fund care for every old person who needs it.

I agree it's completely unfair that people who have saved all their lives are penalised by having to pay for their own care, while people who have no savings get care for free, but can you think of a fairer way of doing it?

My heart bleeds for your sons, what with all of that inheritance on their way. You do realise that most people's parents don't own their house outright or even leave enough money to pay for the funerals? Your sons are sitting pretty and that's before you even take in to account their wealthy grandfather and uncle.

Not a word about your father's diagnosis, but details about how you are withdrawing money from his bank account and money, money, money. Since everyone will be in much the same position as your sons, why wouldn't they do what everyone else does and rent first then buy if they get good enough jobs? Why not concentrate on teaching them good values instead of scrounging as much money out of a sick, elderly man as possible? Do you really think no-one will ever buy a house again?

I don't really understand what you're asking either but I'm guessing what you want to happen is this: you want your son's to get this house/money and you want other people (taxpayers) to pay your FIL's care home fees.

Hey, the money would benefit me too. Can I have some? 'cause at the moment I have no home or substantial savings but I am paying for others' care home fees (gladly).

I can PM my bank details.