To think it would benefit my 2 sons if their grandad's house didn't have to be sold in the future for care home fees

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We have 2 sons (aged 16 and 18). Everyone knows about the dire prospects of any teenagers today ever getting on the property ladder. My sons have always been close to their paternal grandparents. Grandmother died 4 years ago after having Alzheimer's for 7 years. She ended up in a home for last 6 months as my father in law looked after her at home.

He is now 81 and has been diagnosed with dementia. We own our house outright. My husband has one brother who is married, nearly 5o with no children. He owns 2 houses outright, one which he rents out.

We save extremely hard for our future and hopefully house deposits for our sons but the outlook is very bleak from reading the papers/watching the news and I find the outlook for their future very depressing - will they be living with us until they are 40

After the diagnosis my brother in law said he thought it would be a good idea to get his dad's bank balance down as he has nearly £90,000 in the bank. He and my husband withdrew £3,000 each a few months ago with my father in law's approval But I think it is too late for this to make any difference to any possible future care needs. Even if it was reduced to under £23,000 which I understand is the threshold limit for contributing towards your care, the care home would say the house had to be sold.

I am sure my father in law would like to see his only grandchildren live in the house when he passes away, rather than it being sold for care home fees. My brother in law has no children to worry about, has a brilliant final salary pension and a very large bank balance.

I don't know why he came up with the idea to start reducing the bank balance when it will make no difference to his dad having to fund his care if the time comes. No more money has been withdrawn yet but my husband is burying his head in the sand over this and is just agreeing with his older brother.

I do not want a penny from any estate, I would just love to see our sons get a helping hand for the future but this would be via us as the will is 50/50 between my husband and his brother.

I am a very positive person and don't get depressed about much but I feel utter despair at the housing prospects for today's teenagers.

Please tell me if I am being out of order .

Two separate issues here - price of housing and who pays care home fees.
I think that if you have equity, you should be prepared to pay for your own care. You have to support yourself during all the other years of your life, why not at the end?

MIL has to pay £1000 per week for her dementia care home. She and FIL worked hard all their lives and obviously would have preferred that the family eventually benefitted from this, but why should the state be expected to pay for the living costs of their better off citizens so that their (also better off) grandchildren can get onto the property ladder?
The vast majority of people whose fees are paid by the state have never had any money to save.

Or you can work hard all your life, pay your taxes, scrimp and save, suffer an alarming lack of fast cars and holidays, and still not have enough money to buy your own home.

Yes, and because we live in civilised society the taxes you have paid will contribute to paying for your state provided care should you need it when you're old. That's the way it should be, I just believe it should be that way for everyone whether or not they own a house or have a big bank balance.

I would rather pay higher taxes during my working life to pay for that and to allow me the right to give my own assets to my children when I die. I wouldn't have a problem with them having to pay an inheritance tax on what they each inherit, but I have a massive problem with being charged a death tax on my estate before my children see a penny. Who is why I very much hope to have passed on what I have well before I get diagnosed with dementia or become ill, and why I very much hope that my children do start sniffing around and being grabby as soon as they need to to protect my property.

I doubt you will come back OP because you have been given a right pasting.

Do your DH and your BIL have a power of attorney for your FIL?

You can gifts up to £3000 a year without any tax implications - but it's one lot of £3000. Perhaps your DH and your BIL are confused and thought it was £3000 per person. I think it's a bit late to do anything about that now - it will just have to be declared when he dies.
If you want the money left to go to your sons then get your FIL to leave your share of the money to your sons rather than to you - if his dementia is not too far advanced.

OP and family are on dodgy ground already. I'm power of attorney for an elderly relative and have been in the past for a now deceased grandparent. I have to keep very careful records of what decisions I made and money spent. Financial abuse of elders by family is sadly very real and. Dry common.

Very common. Stupid iPhone.

Totally agree with zzzzz !!!

There are so many issues here I don't know where to start.

1. Your FIL will need to pay for his care. It would be wise to get some financial advice - I know that my parents paid into some kind of investment fund for my grandpa's care - basically if he lived longer than 2 years his care would have been funded for the rest of his life although obviously the cost of the fund for those 2 years was high - his care home fees were extremely high as he was in a lovely private home. Let's face it at 80 odd and ill they are not going to live that long

2. With the resources it sounds like he has you should all be very pleased he can afford to pay for very good care - the social services homes are by no means as good as those you can pay for privately (I had a grandparent in both versions and the private one was just a totally different ball game, more hotel than NHS hospital IYSWIM).

3. If he has decided his assets will be split 50/50 between his sons on his death there is absolutely no reason for you or anyone to suggest this should be otherwise.

4. If your DH wants to pass on his share of the assets to your sons that is very nice and they are very lucky (whether it ends up being 10K each or 50K each). However I would suggest that it would be prudent in any case to take financial advise on how to invest this money for them depending on how and when you want them to have it. They are highly unlikely to want to both live in a house in a location not of their choice (i.e. your FIL's home). So if he can give them a little nest egg - great.

5. Kind of related to point 4. I don't see why you see your children's future housing as your concern. As a pp said they will probably rent initially then hopefully meet someone (be that a life partner or a friend) with whom they can pool resources and buy a place, should they not be earning enough / have enough deposit to buy alone. That is the way the world works. No-one I know has ever had any other situation - other than some being given a (sometimes sizeable) leg up by wealthy parents - and that's only towards a deposit, not a whole house mortgage free - I am sure your sons would not need or expect this, unless they have a special need or disability of some kind preventing them standing on their own 2 feet.

6. Your FIL might not die for another 20 years - I admit to being ignorant about the impact on life expectancy of dementia. So, are they going to sit on their backsides waiting until they are late 30s for a handout, or get out and work so they can afford to house themselves and live their own lives.

I understand your concern but really I think you would be better focusing on the education and motivation of your children than trying to set them up with a house between them.

(When threads go like this, I often wonder what the OP is thinking as she reads).

Hopefully it will prompt her to read the rules a bit better and it will avoid them ending up being accused of things in the future which could go really bad.

I don't think OP is bad for wanting to help her DC but it's a seperate issue.

This just makes me too sad. The more I read the OP the worse it sounds.

There seems to be no concern for your FIL. He is unwell, has a life limiting condition and all you can think about is how your children will buy their houses. If you want your kids to have a ready bought house to move into then earn more money and buy one yourself (or give them your house) and let your FIL have the care he has worked for.

If your FIL becomes severely impaired he will be entitled to continuing health care and the NHS will cover his fees. (most people don't know that as the daily fail loves to scare old people about loosing their homes, being mistreated etc.)
If the family are willing to support him till that point selling his home will not be an issue.
If you are unable or unwilling to offer that degree of support I think you are being unreasonable to not expect him to be self-funding.
You can't have it both ways.
It is sad that people loose out financially because of illness but it is a fact of life for younger people also.

Drudgetrudy - I think you will find that he is entitled only to the care component of being in a nursing home. The residential part still has to be paid for separately.

Lasttango- that's a different funding to Nhs continuing healthcare, they will fund whole care. Saying that, with dementia only the people with the highest needs (often people with challenging behaviour- regular physical aggression) or medical needs qualify. In our area they also review it every 3 months so it is not to be relied on for long term funding.

Where are these people with fast cars and lots of holidays that choose not to buy a home? I've not met one.

We own our house outright

One possibility does present itself!

What a revoltingly grabby, unpleasant and selfish OP. Hope your FIL has someone less dreadful who can take over his finances for him. I think this is despicable.

The more I read the OP the worse it sounds.

They have done 7 years with GM having Alzheimer's now face GF with dementia - the op doesn't say how much support they had to give in those years.

It's not impossible in those difficult years they kept hearing how they'd get the house at the end of it - (this is something my MIL has started and I've tried to stop pointing out care home costs will take it and my GP did though DM did same as me) - and have come to expect it.

Hopefully they are a caring family and OP is just expressing on here her frustration and disapointment with a changed in expectations and a lack of understanding of the current rules – I really hope so as other options are pretty grim for FIL.

Are you being serious OP?

Who should pay out for a nursing home then? Us I suppose.

If you want to save nursing home fees then care for him yourself.

I can understand morally that if some has the finances they should pay for any care in old age. But are people here really saying that if they were in a position to pass their home onto their children etc before it came to being taken for old age care - they wouldn't do it? They would happily pass their home to the state for care rather than arranging for it to be given to their children at an earlier time.

Know loads of people who have done this in their 60's to help their children out.

We are in almost the identical position as the OP. Father in 80's with early dementia who lives alone at home. The same will happen with us unless he dies suddenly rather than need care. We could prevent it by caring for him ourselves when it comes to it and he has said that if one of us take him in then that person will get his money. So far no takers.

So OP, there is always that option - care for him yourself.

No lasttango, my mother is completely funded by continuing health care but both her physical and mental health had to be very poor before that happened. I wasn't aware of continuing health care myself until that happened.
There is an interim stage when what you are saying applies.

What I especially love about your post about the elderly widower with alzheimers whose money you're stealing is the way the following phrases: 'dire prospects' 'very bleak' 'very depressing' and 'utter despair' are applied not to this poor man but to the possibility that your sons won't become home owners any time soon.

Just vile.

"If your FIL becomes severely impaired he will be entitled to continuing health care and the NHS will cover his fees."

Speaking from personal experience here - for someone with no savings at all (before anyone shouts "fast cars and holidays", no, the reason was low income, severe illness in younger/middle years, being a SAHP and never affording to own their own house) that NHS and local authority fee covering is incredibly hard to get.

For example - the fees on a sheltered housing rental in the South of England, in social (non private) housing are £400 to £500 per week. The tenant needs this. He is very, very poorly sighted, suffers emphysema, heart disease, Parkinsons and Alzheimers and struggles to walk even with a frame. He needs the meals provided in the communal restaurant as he cannot see properly or remember to cook properly.

Things like the communal restaurant and the laundry room come at an additional price, but the rent is all-inclusive. You cannot opt out of these extras even if you don't need them.

The local authority helps. It helps by paying the standard, capped housing benefit for a one bedroom property - the same amount that it would pay a healthy, able bodied unemployed young man or woman. Like the able bodied young person, the elderly, sick man is expected to make up the shortfall. The able bodied young man's shortfall might be £10, £20 a week. The person in need of a sheltered housing property or care home and all it entails needs to find far more, even after their carers allowance is taken into account.

There is extra help but by heck do you need to have good supplrt, know where to look and who to ask and to be persistant. And you try attempting to sort out the intricacies of someone else's income, benefits, outgoings etc, past and present, for they are all required, when the person can't remember what he had for breakfast that morning.

It's not just difficult to fund a care place or sheltered housing when the person has no savings or property, even when the person has someone to fight their corner. It's more than that. It's fucking soul destroying, particularly when the person has dementia.

And the OP seems more concerned about the money than that side of the coin.

I don't even know where to start with this one....

You might like to be aware that financial institutions, like your FIL's bank may well investigate these payments out. Reports will be made to the relevant crime agencies and social services.

If your DH and BIL have power of attorney they have to act in the best interests of your FIL not for the rest of the family.

I apologise if I missed this upthread, but YANBU if, and ONLY IF, you are prepared to obviate the need for the sale of the house for care fees by caring for your FIL yourself, in your own home (or moving your family into his home, if more appropriate).

(by yourself, I mean you and your DH, obv., not you alone)

Before doing that you would need a written agreement that if you went down this road, your BIL would waive his right to half the house (or whatever).

YANBU to be anxious about your sons, but YABVVVVVVVU to think that your DH/BIL should fiddle the system to get their house AND free care. How depressing that everybody should want FIL's house, but nobody should want to care for him in his final illness (this is the impression you give in your post - I apologise in advance if you have already said that you will be caring for him at home yourselves).

Sorry OP it's a bit late to change the Will, but my parents have divided their inheritance between gcs and children equally which isn't ideal as half the gcs separated and the dcs have other parents, but it does mean that those with children get more.

The OP's DH and BIL have convinced a man with dementia to give them three grand each so I'm not sure they won't have time to persuade him to change his will, unrealhousewife.

Sorry, the was at the thought of the actions and attitudes of the OP and family, not at you, unrealhousewife.

Right.

I have just been through this, losing my dad 4 years ago and Mum this January.

I cared for my Dad, he came to live with me at my house for the last few months of his life.

Mum had dementia, she was self funding in a care home for just over a year and then qualified for CHC funding in a nursing home for the last 6 months until she died.

Did I feel cross that £30,000 of her money was eaten up in just over 12 months? Yes, but it was mums money not my inheritance and she deserved to have the best care possible. Thankfully it didn't get to the stage of having to sell her home for fees, although it was sold anyway after she went into care.

After she died her remaining estate was split 3 ways, me DB and DSIS. I am using a large chunk of that to fund my DSons deposit on a house. Because I can. And we are all very grateful to have that money but if mum had needed it for care then that would have been where it went, no question.