To think it would benefit my 2 sons if their grandad's house didn't have to be sold in the future for care home fees

[supersec]

We have 2 sons (aged 16 and 18). Everyone knows about the dire prospects of any teenagers today ever getting on the property ladder. My sons have always been close to their paternal grandparents. Grandmother died 4 years ago after having Alzheimer's for 7 years. She ended up in a home for last 6 months as my father in law looked after her at home.

He is now 81 and has been diagnosed with dementia. We own our house outright. My husband has one brother who is married, nearly 5o with no children. He owns 2 houses outright, one which he rents out.

We save extremely hard for our future and hopefully house deposits for our sons but the outlook is very bleak from reading the papers/watching the news and I find the outlook for their future very depressing - will they be living with us until they are 40

After the diagnosis my brother in law said he thought it would be a good idea to get his dad's bank balance down as he has nearly £90,000 in the bank. He and my husband withdrew £3,000 each a few months ago with my father in law's approval But I think it is too late for this to make any difference to any possible future care needs. Even if it was reduced to under £23,000 which I understand is the threshold limit for contributing towards your care, the care home would say the house had to be sold.

I am sure my father in law would like to see his only grandchildren live in the house when he passes away, rather than it being sold for care home fees. My brother in law has no children to worry about, has a brilliant final salary pension and a very large bank balance.

I don't know why he came up with the idea to start reducing the bank balance when it will make no difference to his dad having to fund his care if the time comes. No more money has been withdrawn yet but my husband is burying his head in the sand over this and is just agreeing with his older brother.

I do not want a penny from any estate, I would just love to see our sons get a helping hand for the future but this would be via us as the will is 50/50 between my husband and his brother.

I am a very positive person and don't get depressed about much but I feel utter despair at the housing prospects for today's teenagers.

Please tell me if I am being out of order .

There are rules on deprivation of assets to avoid care home fees
www.ageuk.org.uk/home-and-care/care-homes/deprivation-of-assets-in-the-means-test-for-care-home-provision/

What you seem to be suggesting is that your DSs get your FIL's house and the state provide for any care he needs. In some ways, since money is fungible, you are effectively suggesting that the state house your DSs. Why should the state house your DSs, but not those whose GPs were not home owners?

So you want me (and other tax payers) to pay for his care so that your sons can have deposits for houses?

Nope, not keen on that.

So you don't feel that your sons should ever have to work hard to pay for their own housing, and your BIL should also give up any share of inheritance he may be entitled to in order to facilitate your son's laziness?

And I would suggest that if your FIL wanted to, he could have sorted out tax/money/inheritance planning a long time ago. Maybe he's happy to spend his own money on paying for himself.

Oh and I would be very careful if I were you that you don't put yourself into a position of undue influence of an elderly man suffering from dementia. Presumably if he had wanted to plan his estate so as to benefit his sons, he would have done so by now. The withdrawing of money from his account in this way is questionable to say the least - what was it spent on and by whom?

I do not want a penny from any estate, I would just love to see our sons get a helping hand for the future but this would be via us as the will is 50/50 between my husband and his brother

So whats the problem?

And whats the alternative? Leave him in his own home until he has a nasty accident and conveniently dies? Or let him move in with one of you, since its such a money maker?

We have inherited recently and bought a house which we could never have done without this.
We have 2 children and won't have anymore because we can just about give 2 a good set of opportunities, some of which cost money.

It is very likely that we may inherit again before they are teenagers ( we have been told and shown the will ) although we are not counting on it, we are more than aware of the possibility that this person could need the money for specialist care and therefore do not look to this as a solution for the future.

You should presume that you will get nothing as if you keep looking at this potential money as a problem solver then it will be devastating to discover when the time comes it is all gone or promised to lots of other people/charities.
It's not yours until it is and you can not decided what to do with someone else's money unless it is to help that person.

I am sure a decent person would rather give an elderly man the chance to live his last years with dignity in an appropriate home with the best care whatever the cost, I am sure your boys would understand this, especially if they have a close relationship with him.

Yes was going to say about deprivation of assets
there are also rules about how much money can be given (in your case, taken) before the tax man becomes interested.

Taking money from the account would surely have to remain under 7k as otherwise it's tax wise a gift. Gd then would have to live 7yrs I think for it remain a gift or else it reverts to estate and is taxed at death.

You need to help your dh. He and db should get financial advice together. The results are NOT yours, or at this point your children's. Just these two assuming no one else in will.

The state, and those of us who are taxpayers, is already paying for people's care home fees when they could have paid for it themselves.

Some people choose to spend money on cars and holidays, luxuries and renting property they couldn't afford to buy and others choose to live in less desirable areas and spend on their mortgage and house maintenance.

People should not be penalised for choosing to buy property.

I too will be making sure I do enough financial planning that my children will benefit from my assets rather than allow the government to take my own property away from my family.

It's fraud. Just like benefit fraud. But your kind is more socially acceptable. I have no idea why.

YABU. It is not your money or your children's money. If your father in law is self funding (which he will be with his house) you can afford a nicer care home then social services could pay for.

Does your FIL have the mental capacity to decide whether you take huge amounts of cash from his bank account?

It is his money, should be spent on him. I hate the idea that people are owed an inheritance. Sounds awful that you are putting money before his care.

Hold on. Your fil was diagnosed with dementia and THEN his sons started helping themselves to money from his bank account?
So from a legal point of view was he in fact able to give his approval. What they (and you) are doing is at best immoral and quite possibly illegal.
All of this done to defraud the system so he can live for free in a care home.

You sound really delightful.

Be careful of inheritance tax rules. If he does within 7 years anything above a fee hundred (small gifts allowance) or up to £5k in consideration of marriage could be taxable.

People should not be penalised for choosing to buy property. How are they being penalised??

I too will be making sure I do enough financial planning The financial planning that so far appears to comprise of taking £3000 out of an old man's account once he's been diagnosed with dementia?

OP, you are not being grabby or greedy as some kind person said. Of course you want to help your chidren, please ignore all those posters telling you to let them stand on their own feet. They are your family. Families support each other.

I am sorry not to have any practical advice except to second the notion of talking to a good financial advisor.

Clawback applies to savings as well as property. So if the council suspect your dad's savings have been gifted away to avoid care home fees they can pursue you for the money. I'd be really careful if I were you... Very dodgy ground here....

How is it fraud and illegal?

A man gave his sons three grand each, where's the issue?

Parents are allowed to give their children money! Tax will be payable if the gift is large enough, but there's nothing immoral about it.

I do know that when my husband and I are in our sixties we will get our house and finances sorted out to avoid the possible prospect of the house being sold to fund care.

So you expect US, THE TAXPAYER, to fund your care home fees? What the fuck??

Tented- helping family? How is taking the money helping FIL? Just because he has dementia doesn't mean that he should have his bank account drained.

If I knew the OPs real details I would be contacting the local authority safeguarding team. This is a safeguarding issue.

Vivacia, I think I explained how people are penalised in these situations already.

If you choose to spend your money on a house, you have to pay your own care. If you choose to spend the same amount of money on holidays and fast cars, you get your care for free. That is how people are penalised for saving money and buying property, and it's not fair.

What a breath takingly arrogant post! Why should you father's estate NOT pay for his care when it has the means to do so?

Perhaps you should move him in with you OP if you want to protect his money, you know look after him for a bit before you benefit. Poor man.

It's disgusting that, when an older person becomes frail, their own family starts fretting about what money they are going to get from the older person's death.

And the deprivation of capital? Well, I'm sure these people are the first to moan about 'benefit scroungers', when they are the ones fiddling the system themselves.

I refuse to feel sorry for well-off people who want the state to pay for everything so that they can get all Granby and argumentative with each other over a living person's money.