To have gone to ds when he was upset? Dh thinks so....

[Tory79]

To the extent that he's not speaking to me!

So dh took ds (2.8) up for his bath and bed last night. Ds was overtired I think, and for whatever reason, bath time quickly descended in to a hysterical screaming fit on the part of ds, typical toddler issues of want to get in bath/dont want to get in bath etc etc but from downstairs I could ds doing those horrible chokey sobs, despite dhs best efforts to calm him. So I went upstairs, poked my head round the bathroom door and dh asked me to go away and let him handle it - I went back downstairs.

A few minutes later ds could be heard wailing for me at the top of the stairs, clearly no calmer and really wanting mummy. So I went back up, ave him a cuddle and stayed up there for about 5m until he was calmer, then I went back downstairs and dh finished putting him to bed. When he came down he was clearly annoyed and we spent the rest of the evening in silence. The same thing happened about 4 weeks ago as well.

So, I think I was not being unreasonable to have gone to ds, on the basis that Ds has no problem with dh putting him to bed, they normally have a whale of a time. It's not like we have a problem to fix iykwim. Ds was just overtired, and to be frank I'm better at calming him down than dh is - if I'd not gone up dh would probably have ended up getting cross and putting ds to bed still upset.
Or was I being unreasonable because dh wanted me to let him deal with it?

I think YABU.
It's probably more upsetting because you did the same a few weeks ago so you knew how he felt about it before you even did it.

YABU - for the simple reason that giving a child something that they want because they are screaming for it isn't on.

*'Naughty daddy made me have a bath. I told him off and mummy came and agreed with me'.

A two year old's perspective is more likely to be "Daddy made me have a bath and I was sad. When Mummy gave me a cuddle I felt better. Then Daddy put me to bed". It wouldn't cross their mind to wonder whether Mummy agreed with Daddy unless someone planted the thought there.*

A two and a half year olds perspective is "I'm upset so I'm going to scream. Oh, I've just got what I wanted for screaming. That's a good idea for next time"

At this age they are more than capable of understanding that screaming the place down is not the way to communicate. Tired or not.

YABU - for the simple reason that giving a child something that they want because they are screaming for it isn't on
2 year olds lose control of their emotions and need comfort. I see the huge difference between my 2 year old and 4 year old in this respect.

The toddler in question is nearly three.
I have looked after a lot of 2 to 3 year olds who are capable of understanding.
Yes they lose control of their emotions, but it doesn't mean that they are immune to operant conditioning.

PP have said that the problem is DHs hurt feelings, and the child's feelings are more important., but saying you have undermined DH has nothing to do with his feelings.

You have undermined his position in the family, you have reduced his authority, you have prevented the development of his relationship with DS. that is the damage done, nothing to do with feelings.

However, it is likely that doing this has also upset him and made him frustrated and angry. That is a completely separate issue, the result of the damage, it isn't in itself the damage.

Maybe it is best if you just leave the house if your child behaves like this? If you can't resist the temptation to interfere?

YANBU and personally i could not sit and listen to my 3 yr old crying for me and not go to him for comfort when its a rare moment of extreme upset and tiredness.
If Dad has said no to sweets/tv type thing and he's wailing i will ignore him.

I think most mums know the difference. Parenting isn't always black and white, there's a hell of a lot of grey!

Good gravy AElfgifu, what an over the top post. If that is how her DH feels then he sounds like hard work. How does he cope with life?

Leave the house? Temptation to interfere? She was just helping out!

Some people make life way too complicated.

Maybe its just better you leave the house. Really. How horrible. That's just inflammatory.

How things could have gone...

loud crying coming from upstairs, OP goes to see what's up

OP: Everything alright?
DH: I think so, he's just got himself in a state.
OP: Ah, Maybe he's just over tired...
DH: Could be.
OP: I'll try calming him down a little.
DH: Great, I'll sort the pyjamas out.

child calms down while both parents finish bath and jammies. Child has cuddle and story with daddy while mummy opens a bottle of wine puts on the kettle

TAH-DAH!

I think the op should leave the house if she is unable to cope, and can't bring herself to do the right thing.

She did the right thing, your dh is being a child. If ds3 was upset and crying for me I'd go to him, dp would do the same if it was the other way round.

The right thing was to go and comfort her upset child.

If her DH wants to huff because things didn't go his way then he should be left too it. Children are unpredictable and every situation is different. This one called for a cuddle from OP.

Next time it could be her DH that needs to comfort his over-tired son, should the OP stop speaking to him if he tries to help?

A two and a half year olds perspective is "I'm upset so I'm going to scream. Oh, I've just got what I wanted for screaming. That's a good idea for next time"

This thread is becoming more extreme by the minute!

Two year olds are people. They have the right to be listened to, especially when they are asking for the thing they need to help them bring their emotions under control. In fact that is much better encouraged than ignored. He wasn't screaming for sweets or to put off bedtime. He was looking for comfort and help to calm down.

There's a difference between being authoritarian and being authoritative. Children need firm, clear boundaries but they also need those boundaries to be reasonable. Keeping a child from a parent who can offer them comfort when they are struggling to deal with their own emotions just for the sake or stamping your authority on them isn't reasonable.

Well OP fwiw I'd have gone to either of my kids in that situation and I wouldn't have questioned myself afterwards.

Your ds is only little, it's not a regular thing, he wanted his mummy, where's the harm? I'm 33 and sometimes I want my mummy! I have to just suck it up but at 2 years old when you're only downstairs it'd be cruel not to go IMO. My dh would expect me to go too and not be grumpy about it.

Well OP fwiw I'd have gone to either of my kids in that situation and I wouldn't have questioned myself afterwards.

Your ds is only little, it's not a regular thing, he wanted his mummy, where's the harm? I'm 33 and sometimes I want my mummy! I have to just suck it up but at 2 years old when you're only downstairs it'd be cruel not to go IMO. My dh would expect me to go too and not be grumpy about it.

Have just read last few posts u had somehow missed.

Sometimes mumsnet just confuses me. What the hell is so wrong about teaching your child that you treat people, including them, with empathy, understanding and kindness? Life is not all about bloody parenting strategies and rules, IMO it mostly about instinct and comfort and security for a 2 year old at least!

I have looked after a lot of 2 to 3 year olds who are capable of understanding.
Yes they lose control of their emotions, but it doesn't mean that they are immune to operant conditioning

Not when they're overtired snivelling messes they aren't.

YABU - for the simple reason that giving a child something that they want because they are screaming for it isn't on.

Sometime it is and sometimes it isn't.

If they are choosing to scream in order to make an adult change a decision about something they want it absolutely isn't a good idea to give it to them.

If they are crying because they are overwhelmed by a situation and are asking for the thing that will help them calm down it is very appropriate to give it to them.

If a child traps their fingers in a door and is screaming for help should we leave them because it's not a good idea to give them what they want when they are screaming for it?

As has been said repeatedly on this thread, this isn't black and white.

Some posters write as if they have swalowed all the 'childcare guru' books, with all that 'united parenting', manipulative babies, 'great idea i will scream again next time' etc.
Ever heard the phrase 'play by the ear'?.
Or 'bend the rules sometimes'?

Do you really live like this, do you analyze everything, do you always go by the book?

'Hmm i would like to hug my 2yr old but i need to have a deep thinking first and a debate with myself. What about if this hurts dh's ego, would it seems like i dont trust his parenting skills? Would i create a son monster who might come with a knife when he is 16 and tell us:give me the house and the car or i will scream loudly. Hmm what the books say? Should i hug him or should i not? I must remain very restricted. If i cant perhaps i should leave the house. For few days. Visit the Pope to tell my sin. Or have therapy'.

Molly,
In my house it would have been exactly as you wrote. Or even we could skip the bath if he was very tired and go to the bed story and to the wine bit.

Laquitar, I don't think this situation needed any playing by ear or bending rules, it was just a run of the mill 3 year old strop, and needed a response based on the principles of whatever basic parenting model the OP has settled on.

She is on the permissive/soft side of the spectrum.

Others are on the firm/no manipulation side of the spectrum.

The two sides are never going to agree.

personally, as a teacher, I think you get a far better outcome for your teenage child if you brought them up ignoring tantrums, but in all honesty, by the time they grow up, it matters very little which way you went.

Bahaha @ Laquitar.

Well it would be funny if there wasn't so many posters on this thread who must regularly queue outside the Vatican. :o

It sounds exhausting.

A two and a half year olds perspective is "I'm upset so I'm going to scream. Oh, I've just got what I wanted for screaming. That's a good idea for next time"

I don't agree with this. Obviously nobody knows what thought process actually goes through a 2yo's mind unless you can remember being 2, but think about the last time you screamed about something. It's not a nice or pleasant or fun state to be in. I don't think a 2 year old is thinking "I'm upset, so I'm going to scream." Adults don't think that rationally. People don't just decide "I'm going to scream now! That would be a really sensible and useful course of action." No, you just get to a point where you have no idea what else to do, you're not being heard, nothing is going right and you're so angry/frightened/upset that you're not thinking anything - if you were, the last thing you'd do is scream because (as an adult) you know screaming (in anger) isn't helpful or productive, it's going to hurt your throat and probably give you a headache, and it's not likely to endear anybody to your cause anyway. The two year old probably hasn't grasped that last part yet, but then two year olds aren't usually capable of thinking ahead, they act in the moment, which also means they get to screaming capacity far quicker than most adults.

When children scream for fun it's very different to when they scream because they are upset or angry about something, you can see it in their faces and their whole demeanour. Even if they're screaming for, I don't know, sweets or something, and you say it's because the parent gave in last time, well that might be true but I still doubt that they thought "Oh I know what will work, a nice big scream." That kind of reasoning comes much later at maybe four or five. At two it's probably "But I had one last time and I want it and I don't know when we're going to see one again. You're not listening to me, I said I want it. GIVE IT TO ME IT'S NOT FAIR." They don't understand why they can't have it and hence they get more and more distressed about not having it, which results in screaming unless they are particularly easily distractable or reasonable-with. That doesn't mean you should let them have it, obviously, but it's not naughtiness either, it's just emotion. I find it really bizarre when people seem to think children are constantly thinking up plots when really they're just upset because they have a totally different (and skewed, of course) perspective on something.

Allsfair I'm not sure how your credentials as a teacher factor into your opinion of a better outcome for teenagers if brought up with their tantrums ignored, unless you've known how each and every one of the children you've had contact with were brought up?

I think OP is in the right but understand that others do not. What I think we can all agree on though is that a grown man who thinks it's ok to be such a big old sulky chops for three days after the event is probably only a little more mature than his toddler.

In his case I certainly do agree though that his tantrum should be entirely ignored.

Nickifury, because I have seen how it all pans out, in thousands of individual cases.